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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think Jewish people are the scapegoats of humanity?

1006 replies

FactsNotFictionOnly · 22/06/2024 22:36

I have not posted on the CITME board as although the current conflict is relevant, that is not the main point of this thread.

I do not mean to cause any offence to Jewish people. In fact the opposite.

IF THIS POST IS DELETED BECAUSE IT OFFENDS NON JEWISH PEOPLE, THEN PLEASE RESPOND WITH WHY YOU FIND IT OFFENSIVE BEFORE REPORTING.

I am an atheist and think all religion should be consigned to history books so have no affiliation with any faith but I found the reaction to Oct 7th shocking with almost immediate protests against Israel (the victim) in favour of the ‘freedom fighters’ (the agressors). The denials that atrocities happened, the antisemitism, horrifying comments on SM which are still allowed to stand to this day.

Never before in my life (and I’m getting on a bit) have I seen that reaction of hatred to any country that has been the victim of any kind of terrorist attack or act of war anywhere in the world. Never before have I been aware of the kind of atrocities committed in Israel on such a large scale by a neighbouring country, filmed by the perpetrators, either.

I had heard comments made about ‘the Jews’ at various stages in my life, how they run the world, the banks, the media etc but never really thought much about it or believed it.

I noticed an absolutely blatant lie that popped up on SM yesterday with thousands of comments agreeing with the poster so I responded (never normally do) saying so with evidence and the abuse I got was unbelievable.

That made me do a bit more research on the persecution of Jewish people through history and I was pretty shocked that they were blamed for the death of Jesus, murdering Christian children as sacrifices to be baked into flatbreads, the Black Death, World War 1, 9/11, Covid. All totally false and a lot of the time because it was a way of debtors not paying money they owed to the Jewish people who were the world’s money lenders as it was prohibited in Christianity and Islam and Jewish people were prohibited from other work.

Each time they were blamed for something whole communities were burned to death or had to flee. They were banished from England in the 12th century as well as lots of other European countries. Now I understand why there is so much hatred from the UK and Europeans as these ‘legends’ persist.

Of course in the Middle East from 586 BC they were persecuted where they were killed, forced to convert to Christianity (or pretend to to stay alive) before Islam took over, treated as 2nd class citizens, subject to high taxes and strict rules, regular pogroms and were also forced to leave their homes in their hundreds of thousands.

This was all before a return to Israel was even a thing so there was no ‘Zionism’ then which is currently the excuse for the widespread hatred of Jewish people.

Even before this current conflict there seems to have been a deliberate misunderstanding of the situation in the Middle East with a lot of relevant history missed out out.

Such as the Ottoman Empire ruled the area directly before the Mandate of Palestine and they referred to it as Southern Syria. There were no Palestinians only Arabs. Why didn’t they ‘freedom fight’ the Ottomans for their own State as surely they were occupied under the Ottomans too if they believe the land is all theirs?

I have never seen references to Palestinians being ‘occupied’ by the British either. Weird as they believe the land is theirs and always was theirs - from the River to the Sea.

Why do a lot of people ignore the constant terrorist attacks as the reason why not only Israel, but Egypt too, had to blockade Gaza after a terrorist group with a known mandate to annihilate Israel and kill Jews was elected to govern it by it’s citizens?

Why are people not understanding that this war is not a ‘normal’ war with normal rules of engagement between two uniformed military forces where civilians are afforded protection by their government, military hardware, munitions and bases are placed outside of civilian areas and civilians including children are not involved in military action by firing rockets, RPGs, shootings, stabbings, throwing IEDs, holding hostages in their homes and taking part in barbaric murders, rapes, burning people including children alive and taking hostages?

It is absolutely horrific that civilians have been killed in such a high number or at all but a lot of the deaths can be explained as above and are all due to the war Hamas started.

Why are Hamas not being publicly pressured by Palestinian protestors to give themselves up?

The only (and tiny) Jewish State in the world is now even being persecuted for defending itself against massive neighbouring states who want to wipe it out.

Has there ever been such a forensic examination of any other war while in progress as in this one?

The propaganda and false information circulating before and during this conflict has made it all too clear to see how the Holocaust happened and it’s terrifying to see. I used to watch films on the subject and wonder how could so many people have stood by and let it happen. Now we can all see how.

How can a tiny race of 1% of the population who have achieved more than any other race alive today, be so hated.

Is it jealousy of their success or the hundreds of years of lies that have been brainwashed down generations?

AIBU?

https://www.historytoday.com/archive/why-were-jews-persecuted

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Jews

Why Were the Jews Persecuted?

Tim Black seeks to understand the origins of antisemitism, looking beyond the Holocaust to the ancient Middle East and medieval Europe.

https://www.historytoday.com/archive/why-were-jews-persecuted

OP posts:
Thread gallery
43
Aladdinzane · 23/06/2024 22:22

FlakyShaker · 23/06/2024 22:21

Lol where? State the time of the post.

Anyone can use a search button apparently.

Its there.

You were asked, you didn't respond, you made whataboutism points instead.

FlakyShaker · 23/06/2024 22:23

Lol lost the plot, can't even refer to the post.

DuskyBlueDepartingLight · 23/06/2024 22:26

@CaliMZ

Not baiting you. I genuinely found your post funny in an absurd tragi-comic 'you've clearly come on to a thread about antisemitism & contributed nothing on the topic of antisemitism but of course you don't have an agenda kind of way'.

Thanks for telling the thread police not to be the thread police so that you can be the thread police.

Your opinions are so much more opinion-y 😂

Aladdinzane · 23/06/2024 22:27

FlakyShaker · 23/06/2024 22:23

Lol lost the plot, can't even refer to the post.

The thread is clearly traceable according to you.

Can't even meet the standards you demand of others.

Total fail.

FlakyShaker · 23/06/2024 22:27

Aladdinzane · 23/06/2024 22:19

You were asked if sexual violence only mattered when it was used against one group.

I stated:

"Sexual violence as a weapon of war is ALWAYS to be condemned in the highest way.

But were you doing this when there was evidence of it being used on Palestinian women and girls in captivity before October 7th?"

state the time of the post

thankyou

FlakyShaker · 23/06/2024 22:28

Aladdinzane · 23/06/2024 22:27

The thread is clearly traceable according to you.

Can't even meet the standards you demand of others.

Total fail.

it is

I can't find a post that doesn't exist though and neither can you

but feel free to state the time

LOL

Aladdinzane · 23/06/2024 22:29

FlakyShaker · 23/06/2024 16:48

It's not their land anymore. Hasn't been for over 70 years.

As I said, that's long enough, otherwise it just gets ridiculous. Don't personally want to start claiming Africa as my own just because we all originated there.

Do you remember this one? Where you showed your support for the use of violence and warfare ( plus human rights abuses) etc, when it was for the side that you support?

noblegiraffe · 23/06/2024 22:30

Dear god would the absolute tools twatting around on this thread while other people are trying to discuss an extremely serious topic pack it in please?

Aladdinzane · 23/06/2024 22:31

!"You are the one that is making it so that its only the rape of one type of woman in war that is worth discussing.

Sexual violence as a weapon of war is ALWAYS to be condemned in the highest way.

But were you doing this when there was evidence of it being used on Palestinian women and girls in captivity before October 7th?

This is typical deflection by the pro Israeli side, we can ever talk about their civilians and victims of war. Never others."

20.55

Wrong again

FlakyShaker · 23/06/2024 22:31

FlakyShaker · 23/06/2024 22:27

state the time of the post

thankyou

We can just write you off as troll then

Thanks

CaliMZ · 23/06/2024 22:31

DuskyBlueDepartingLight · 23/06/2024 22:26

@CaliMZ

Not baiting you. I genuinely found your post funny in an absurd tragi-comic 'you've clearly come on to a thread about antisemitism & contributed nothing on the topic of antisemitism but of course you don't have an agenda kind of way'.

Thanks for telling the thread police not to be the thread police so that you can be the thread police.

Your opinions are so much more opinion-y 😂

Oh have you reported it to the thread police because so many people have disagreed with you? I think that is tragic and sad. It would be comic if it wasn't so sad. Thanks for outing your real intention to everyone - if this disappears we'll know only a particular narrative is supported.

HowoftenshouldIdothis · 23/06/2024 22:31

I realise you think people who support those who are innocent civilians in Palestine are "very, very wrong", but many many people don't agree with that narrative.

@CaliMZ

I'm guessing you listened to the speech to the UN made by Mosab Hassan Yousef (son of one of the Hamas founders) that I linked before.

Because yes, as he says, it's very very wrong to support the oppressors of Palestinians. The oppressors being, as he says, Hamas. And as he says, the way to help Palestinians (who he loves, as he says, because they're his people), is to support Israel against Hamas.

He, of course, speaks with the knowledge and firsthand experience of being a former Hamas insider.

FlakyShaker · 23/06/2024 22:34

Aladdinzane · 23/06/2024 22:31

!"You are the one that is making it so that its only the rape of one type of woman in war that is worth discussing.

Sexual violence as a weapon of war is ALWAYS to be condemned in the highest way.

But were you doing this when there was evidence of it being used on Palestinian women and girls in captivity before October 7th?

This is typical deflection by the pro Israeli side, we can ever talk about their civilians and victims of war. Never others."

20.55

Wrong again

Oh a post at 2055 which isn't actually addressed to me

priceless stuff

CaliMZ · 23/06/2024 22:35

HowoftenshouldIdothis · 23/06/2024 22:31

I realise you think people who support those who are innocent civilians in Palestine are "very, very wrong", but many many people don't agree with that narrative.

@CaliMZ

I'm guessing you listened to the speech to the UN made by Mosab Hassan Yousef (son of one of the Hamas founders) that I linked before.

Because yes, as he says, it's very very wrong to support the oppressors of Palestinians. The oppressors being, as he says, Hamas. And as he says, the way to help Palestinians (who he loves, as he says, because they're his people), is to support Israel against Hamas.

He, of course, speaks with the knowledge and firsthand experience of being a former Hamas insider.

Did he say that gives Israel licence to bomb Palestinean civilians to smithereens? International law provides no such carte blanche. I really cannot see how it is hard to accept that so many of us want both Israeli and Palestinean civilians to be safe, and not just one side.

Aladdinzane · 23/06/2024 22:36

FlakyShaker · 23/06/2024 22:34

Oh a post at 2055 which isn't actually addressed to me

priceless stuff

Excuses, excuses

The thread is easily traceable according to you.

You also then continued by responding to this very question.

:)

Oh dear.

Aladdinzane · 23/06/2024 22:37

FlakyShaker · 23/06/2024 21:06

@Aladdinzane

But were you doing this when there was evidence of it being used on Palestinian women and girls in captivity before October 7th?

Were you?

See, you directly quoted it.

Oh my.

FlakyShaker · 23/06/2024 22:38

Aladdinzane · 23/06/2024 22:36

Excuses, excuses

The thread is easily traceable according to you.

You also then continued by responding to this very question.

:)

Oh dear.

Still going troll.

What a sorry state of affairs when you can't back down.

If I were you I'd take a good look at why that is and whether my entire thought process is completely irrational.

Adios

Aladdinzane · 23/06/2024 22:40

FlakyShaker · 23/06/2024 22:38

Still going troll.

What a sorry state of affairs when you can't back down.

If I were you I'd take a good look at why that is and whether my entire thought process is completely irrational.

Adios

Running away cause you got shown up?

It is VERY funny that you were caught out so badly.

fliptopbin · 23/06/2024 22:41

fliptopbin · 23/06/2024 22:16

But the population of Gaza is overwhelmingly very young, and many pf them would not have been able to vote in 2006. So you are blaming young people for the actions of their parents
.Do all Brits deserve to die because they voted for someone who then went rogue and started an illegal war?

Ignore this post, I misread what I was quoting and it doesn't make sense.

Toffeelover · 23/06/2024 22:42

So much to respond to here, I’ll try and keep it simple.
What happened on Oct 7th was horrific, there’s no denying that. 1200 Israelis dead and over 100 hostages taken. It’s equivalent to a “911” event where any “victim” country would want revenge.

What happened in reality though was that very soon Isrrael lost world sympathy due to the scale of its attacks on Palestine. They killed 4000 children in 28 days and to date 14,000 children have died.

Israel, supposedly have the most sophisticated counter terrorism force in the world & should easily be able to take out a few 100 terrorists yet they are obliterating a whole population. So much so that the ICHR have declared that they are guilty of a genocide.

There are in fact no “atrocities committed in Israel on such a large scale by a neighbouring country” because Israel do not recognise Palestine as a country.

The “atrocities” could also be described as “resistance” of Zionists that are illegally occupying Palestine land.

I agree 100% that Jewish people Jace been oppressed & victimised throughout history and would never tolerate anti semitism

There is, however a massive difference between Jews and Zionists.

Zionists believe that Palestine in the promised land and Britain gave Palestine to the Zionists as part of reparations after WW2.

Giving a land from one colonial force to another does not make it right. Britain had no legal right to do so.

Since then, the Zionists have brutally oppressed the Palestinians, importing “settlers” in from all over the world and confiscating local Palestine families. Israel have contravened 28 UN resolutions over this. Iraq contravened 2 and the US and U.K. invaded.

This “tiny state” has the 4th biggest stockpile of arms in the world and is funded mostly by the US.

The forensic examination is due to the fact that there is so much real life footage through social media, so we can see the atrocities taking place on both sides and make up our own minds.

To date, every aid agency and peace keeping force (Oxfam,Amnesty etc) say that Israel is committing horrific attacks on a scale of genocide.

There are 100’s of 1000’s of Jews who are opposed to this war and Netanyahu is a very unpopular leader within Israel, so to be fair the Israeli population may also be victims themselves of his extreme behaviour as it may provoke attacks for powerful neighbouring countries.

I also % agree that Isreal is a country of extraordinary accomplishments. It would, however, be sad that a group of people who have experienced so much oppression will be remembered for the very same brutality that they themselves experienced

Vittuunterroristit · 23/06/2024 22:47

Toffeelover · 23/06/2024 22:42

So much to respond to here, I’ll try and keep it simple.
What happened on Oct 7th was horrific, there’s no denying that. 1200 Israelis dead and over 100 hostages taken. It’s equivalent to a “911” event where any “victim” country would want revenge.

What happened in reality though was that very soon Isrrael lost world sympathy due to the scale of its attacks on Palestine. They killed 4000 children in 28 days and to date 14,000 children have died.

Israel, supposedly have the most sophisticated counter terrorism force in the world & should easily be able to take out a few 100 terrorists yet they are obliterating a whole population. So much so that the ICHR have declared that they are guilty of a genocide.

There are in fact no “atrocities committed in Israel on such a large scale by a neighbouring country” because Israel do not recognise Palestine as a country.

The “atrocities” could also be described as “resistance” of Zionists that are illegally occupying Palestine land.

I agree 100% that Jewish people Jace been oppressed & victimised throughout history and would never tolerate anti semitism

There is, however a massive difference between Jews and Zionists.

Zionists believe that Palestine in the promised land and Britain gave Palestine to the Zionists as part of reparations after WW2.

Giving a land from one colonial force to another does not make it right. Britain had no legal right to do so.

Since then, the Zionists have brutally oppressed the Palestinians, importing “settlers” in from all over the world and confiscating local Palestine families. Israel have contravened 28 UN resolutions over this. Iraq contravened 2 and the US and U.K. invaded.

This “tiny state” has the 4th biggest stockpile of arms in the world and is funded mostly by the US.

The forensic examination is due to the fact that there is so much real life footage through social media, so we can see the atrocities taking place on both sides and make up our own minds.

To date, every aid agency and peace keeping force (Oxfam,Amnesty etc) say that Israel is committing horrific attacks on a scale of genocide.

There are 100’s of 1000’s of Jews who are opposed to this war and Netanyahu is a very unpopular leader within Israel, so to be fair the Israeli population may also be victims themselves of his extreme behaviour as it may provoke attacks for powerful neighbouring countries.

I also % agree that Isreal is a country of extraordinary accomplishments. It would, however, be sad that a group of people who have experienced so much oppression will be remembered for the very same brutality that they themselves experienced

The “atrocities” could also be described as “resistance” of Zionists that are illegally occupying Palestine land.

I'll ask you what I asked another poster. What exactly were the people raped, kidnapped and murdered doing that meant the only way to resist was to rape, kidnap and murder them? And why the scare quotes around atrocities?

Zionists believe that Palestine in the promised land and Britain gave Palestine to the Zionists as part of reparations after WW2.

We do?

HowoftenshouldIdothis · 23/06/2024 22:51

CaliMZ · 23/06/2024 22:35

Did he say that gives Israel licence to bomb Palestinean civilians to smithereens? International law provides no such carte blanche. I really cannot see how it is hard to accept that so many of us want both Israeli and Palestinean civilians to be safe, and not just one side.

Why don't you listen to what he has to say.

He wants peace. He wants safety for both Israelis and Palestinians. He explains this can only be achieved by supporting Israel against Hamas.

He knows more than you I'd say. He was not only involved in Hamas terrorist activities but his father is one of the founders.

He explains that Hamas uses innocent Palestinians including children as human shields.

He talks about Hamas violently torturing and persecuting Palestinians to 'comply' with this.

He explains that the Hamas leaders live in luxury hotels abroad and spend money on tunnels to attack Israel instead of using that money for Palestinian children in need.

He explains that Hamas have been engaging in terrorist attacks on Israel long before 7th October, with suicide bombers killing Israelis (including Muslim Israelis).

He explains that Israel has the ability (weapons wise) to annihilate Gaza but they don't want to, so are trying to defeat their attackers with restraint (but it's unfortunately impossible to avoid casualties when dealing with terrorist tactics and use of human shields).

He also says Hamas's ideology is about antisemitism.

Humdingerydoo · 23/06/2024 22:57

Vittuunterroristit · 23/06/2024 22:47

The “atrocities” could also be described as “resistance” of Zionists that are illegally occupying Palestine land.

I'll ask you what I asked another poster. What exactly were the people raped, kidnapped and murdered doing that meant the only way to resist was to rape, kidnap and murder them? And why the scare quotes around atrocities?

Zionists believe that Palestine in the promised land and Britain gave Palestine to the Zionists as part of reparations after WW2.

We do?

I'm conflicted. Part of me is just grateful a poster didn't openly deny or minimise anti-Semitism, the other part of me wants to point out the numerous inaccuracies in their post but also really can't be bothered because what's the point?

CaliMZ · 23/06/2024 22:59

HowoftenshouldIdothis · 23/06/2024 22:51

Why don't you listen to what he has to say.

He wants peace. He wants safety for both Israelis and Palestinians. He explains this can only be achieved by supporting Israel against Hamas.

He knows more than you I'd say. He was not only involved in Hamas terrorist activities but his father is one of the founders.

He explains that Hamas uses innocent Palestinians including children as human shields.

He talks about Hamas violently torturing and persecuting Palestinians to 'comply' with this.

He explains that the Hamas leaders live in luxury hotels abroad and spend money on tunnels to attack Israel instead of using that money for Palestinian children in need.

He explains that Hamas have been engaging in terrorist attacks on Israel long before 7th October, with suicide bombers killing Israelis (including Muslim Israelis).

He explains that Israel has the ability (weapons wise) to annihilate Gaza but they don't want to, so are trying to defeat their attackers with restraint (but it's unfortunately impossible to avoid casualties when dealing with terrorist tactics and use of human shields).

He also says Hamas's ideology is about antisemitism.

So this is someone who has obviously fallen out with his father - but taking what you say as read, this proves there are many innocent Palestineans who have no choice but to comply with Hamas. This is despite some Israeli government ministers claiming there are no innocent Palestineans.

Do you not see that this makes bombing these civilians to smithereens even more abhorrent than it already is, if that is possible?

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