Discussion over private schools brings out illogical viewpoints, sheer hypocrisy and the worse traits in people?

[ByPeachJoker]

First off, not that it should impact an objective debate, but we do send our son to a private primary school but would consider ourselves middle income earners.

As you can imagine, this is linked to the PMs debate just now, but having read a recent MN thread on a lady who wanted to know how she might be able to avoid paying VAT on school fees should Labour come into power, I was shocked at the vitriol thrown her way. As far as I could tell, the issue wasn't so much that she wanted to avoid the VAT but the majority of comments were coming from people who essentially felt like this lady was somehow getting her comeuppance, that she automatically deserved to suffer some form of penalty just by virtue of choosing to send her DC to a private school. She made a 'bad' choice and should suffer the consequences.

One comment was simply 'how about sending your kids to a state school like 93% of the population'. It completely disregards the fact that there is a child at the heart of this and that a fairly arbitrary tax change is a) going to lead to an additional cost for exactly the same thing and b) for many parents, this change will mean they cannot afford the fees and this may lead to a child's education and social environment being uprooted. I'm not here to necessarily discuss the actual fairness of VAT being imposed on private school fees but more that there is this automatic reaction by a majority of people whenever private schooling is discussed and that this reaction is rooted in nothing logical and is based on the worse of human emotions such that people ignore the fact that many parents are making a financial/lifestyle sacrifice for their children.

Much of it comes from this completely incorrect assumption that you must be wealthy to send your child to a school. I get the impression that many are misinformed and assume that most private schools are like Eton or Harrow and have fees in excess of £20k a year which really is not the case. I think the negativity comes down to the fact that it's people's children that are involved and so people naturally come to see parents who send their kids to private schools as paying for some form of advantage and this being inherently unfair. Now I accept that there are a lot of people who simply could not afford private school fees BUT (and I know this will be incredibly unpopular) to be quite frank, most middle class families can but the parents simply aren't willing to make the financial and lifestyle sacrifice to send their kids to private school and yet they are happy to try and hate on those that do.

Ultimately they might choose to spend their money on a more expensive car, a bigger house, a nicer holiday etc. I used to live in a new build housing development where people in one bedroom flats had brand new Range Rover Sports parked up outside. It was ridiculous that people who could seemingly 'only' afford a 1 bed flat were buying or leasing cars that were almost a third of the value of their home. However we let them make their choice and move on.

Now you can argue about the ethics of private school education but I think those who automatically view parents who send their kids to private school as people who should endure some form of suffering or deserve whatever is coming to them need to look at the hypocrisy they show when compared to their own lifestyle choices but also understand that we're not all millionaires and have actually made a sacrifice for what we hope is the benefit of our children - have you done the same?

I noticed this too. Private school parents really don't want to subsidise other people's children. They will use the roads though.

I don’t actually agree with vat on education but I disagree with both your points

1. vat is charged on new cars and lease of cars so the person leasing a car for £800 a month will be paying alot more vat than someone spending their money on school fees.

2. a lot of people can’t really afford nursery now but do so by various means such as one parent effectively working for nothing, borrowing the money and paying it back when child starts school etc. the idea being that both parents continuing working will be beneficial in the long run as regards careers, pensions etc. its a hurdle of a few years to get through for most not something they can do for an entire childhood

@ByPeachJoker "Another crucial point is that private school fees at least through primary school are in many cases the same if not less than paying for full time nursery so when you're having to fork out a huge amount for childcare, it's not much to essentially decide that you will continue paying those fees in the form or private school instead of nursery."

Oh this is just fucking stupid and out of touch. Most working families are paying nursery fees, but for many it's literally breaking their budgets. Many take out loans to cover the costs, plenty of women (I say women because they're usually the lower earner/often working part time) aren't even earning enough to cover them. We're a high income family and it impacts our lifestyle massively to be paying them, never mind lower incomes.

It's beyond belief to say "you're already paying nursery fees, it's not much to decide to keep paying them for another SEVEN YEARS". Another seven years of nursery fees would kill most people.

But all children aren’t getting the same from a mainstream education, try telling that to the thousands of parents of children with Sen whose children are out of school or on part time timetables becuase their children don’t fit into the one size fits all current education system we have. Mine was lucky enough to get a place at a specialist school (state funded) but lots of children can’t, I know children who have been out of school for years and no one is bothered about them receiving the same advantages. There is a small, “cheap” private school down the road from us which has a high level of Sen children, generally ones without ehcps as they are so difficult to get and takes years and appeals. Its children like this that will be hardest hit by the policy as the super rich can just suck it up

I don't think I can cope with another "if you don't like private education you're bitter/jealous/a champagne socialist thread. But I do have to point out, mildly, that Starmer bought his house long before he had children. When it was an area where many youngish professional couples bought houses.

Do all courses benefit society as a whole though rather than just the individual? I accept this for a doctor and other essential jobs for which there is no option other than a degree but in other cases it is people’s choices to go to uni and it’s not benefiting anyone directly other than themselves and their earning potential which is same as a private school

It will be education that becomes vat able but as parents in state school don’t pay there the vat on nothing will be nothing

Quite frankly I’m surprised at the number of parents I’ve read complaining that they can only just afford the fees and adding VAT would make them unaffordable. I would’ve only ever chosen to send my kids to private school if the fees were easily affordable because a lot can happen over 14 years and I wouldn’t want to be in the position of having to pull my child out of school and away from their friends over affordability, price rises are something these parents should have considered from the off.

Ban private schools altogether.

If those with money and influence could only send their children to state schools, then state schools would quickly get a lot better.

I get you op. I won’t be able to afford to send my 2 kids to private school, but i went to a private secondary school due to the physical bullying at my primary school where nothing was done.

Pump as much money into state schools as you like, i’m not sure it will do much to improve the shitty parenting. What actually needs to happen is stricter processes on dealing with bullying and disruptive kids. Until that happens, i’d feel no guilt or shame about sending kids to private schools.

I have to disagree with what you’re saying to tbh regarding the £1.5k. How much do you think nursery costs? Many families have to find that amount and make it work.

The biggest problem about private education is you run the risk of being immune to your own privilege and you’re demonstrating that in buckets OP. We’ll be paying and staying, it is pretty much the right thing to do. Do I want to pay extra? No! Would anybody? 🤣

I’m not in or from the UK. I’m in a country where there are a range of private schools with fees ranging from £800 to £40k per year. Everyone sends their kids to whatever school they want/can afford. Nobody judges or cares where kids study - everyone just does the best they can for their families and with whatever resources they have.

I don’t understand why private school parents feel they need to defend or explain their choices or ability to pay the fees. Equally I don’t understand why parents who can’t/don’t want to send their kids to private schools seem so angry and judgmental of parents who do. It would only make sense if they were all competing for the same slots, which they’re not.

Also why should an increase in VAT matter to parents who are not sending their kids to private schools? Surely the only people who should be concerned are the parents of kids in private schools as they’ll be the ones affected? I don’t smoke so increases in excise tax on cigarettes don’t bother me. Why are people not affected by VAT on private schools so invested? I’m so confused.

@Sparsely, excellent post! 👍🌟

Even if I could afford it I wouldn't send my children to a private school, to me it's a waste of money. I genuinely don't feel the education they provide is superior to the state school they attend, considering there is no requirement for private school teachers to even be qualified. It is a luxury to be able to send your children to one, and I think VAT should be paid on the fees. I have a bright, smart, well adjusted child who has been very well educated and supported in his primary school and I'm sure he would be the exact same child even if I had spent thousands of pounds on educating him. I just can't see advantages to private schooling.
My husband drives coaches and takes children into some local private schools- he says they are no better behaved but seem constantly exhausted compared to state schools.

It’s not available to anyone though as there are entrance requirements. some people will never meet those entrance requirements no matter how hard they work as ultimately a lot comes down to natural academic ability, so they will continue to work in minimum wage jobs that are hard physical graft, on the same basis as the private school arguement why should these people on minimum wage be subsidising others to attend university, a luxury they would never be able to obtain themselves?

Of course there is bullying at private schools, just like there is in workplaces.

We all have different experiences. My experience was that i was physically bullied at 2 different state primaries and not at my private secondary.

A big difference is that bullying is dealt with at private, but not at state. That is where the change needs to happen.

@Okaythenboss "Equally I don’t understand why parents who can’t/don’t want to send their kids to private schools seem so angry and judgmental of parents who do. It would only make sense if they were all competing for the same slots, which they’re not. "

Really? You can't understand why people who can't afford an enormous educational advantage for their kids are "angry and judgmental" that others can?

The majority of countries don’t tax education because it isn’t considered a luxury but once you decide against that, why not university? A lot of people can’t afford university and think it is a luxury. University isn’t available on the same terms to anyone. Foreign students pay a different amount, have a higher acceptance rate and are probably all privately educated.

You describe a good primary school though. Many aren’t. Especially secondary schools. So it’s not a waste of money for many. It can be a lifeline.

Private school parent here. I hate the 'we make sacrifices' argument. It's out of reach for the majority of people and saying that makes them feel crap, so they're going to lash out.

What does irritate me though is this presumption that privately educated children are all like those who go to Eton.

I sent my DS to the school he is in because...

1. It does not push academics (no sats for example)
2. They don't push children to go to oxbridge, instead find something they enjoy and encourage them to do that
3. They spend a lot of time outside of the classroom. My DS particularly chooses to go outside and learn and he'd hate being cooped up in a classroom all day.

I'm also irritated that labour have not said how they'll change education. The above was why I chose and pay for an alternative and I'm bloody lucky to be able to do so.

Sticking children in rooms for long periods and as they get older having immense pressure of exams is not good education - it suits some children but certainly not all and I'd like to see how labour will offer a different approach with this money they will generate from VAT.

Finally, it is not a left wing ideology to tax education. Most left wing countries offer private school education which offers different ways of learning or different philosophies - these are usually cheaper and parents can choose. They are not taxed.

There are countries that ban private education such as Russia or North Korea.

Private school parent here. I resent having to send my child to a private school but the state offering was totally unsuitable for my ASD child and in the end she refused to go.

im ambivalent about the VAT on fees. No one wants to pay more money but we have no pay it. I am an enthusiastic Labour voter, but cannot vote for them this time as I am so enraged that Anas Sarwar (Scottish Labour leader) said they had to impose VAT on fees as otherwise ‘Ordinary working families are subsidising the wealthiest 3% in Scotland’. In what way is this the case I don’t know but I pay for a stats place my child is unable to use! And they make it sound like by having no VAT on fees for the whole time VAT has been a tax the private school parents have been subsidised! Unbelievable! No way on earth am I voting for them now!

You're not going to get anywhere with this, OP. We've been over the same arguments again and again in the last few years. People resent the fact that some people can pay for a better education for their child. This is what Labour are banking on with this policy. Not great government, but it's human nature, I guess.

You are really lucky to have a child that fits into the one size fits all that most schools are now. Our local school is great for 95% of children unfortunately mine was not one of the lucky few as it’s autistic. I was told by the head teacher on several occasions that mainstream schools are noisy busy places and if a child can’t cope with that they shouldn’t be in one. I knew I didn’t want to home educate so stuck with it even though it was awful for everyone at the time and fought for ehcp through tribunal and eventually got special school place, other parents feel forced into home education and I know of some that have moved their child to a relatively cheap private school down the road which is much smaller and has smaller classes. My sons state funded special school costs the taxpayer £30,000 a year funds per child plus we get transport which adds a few thousand more , if I’d chosen not to fight and send him to the small private school down the road it would have cost the tax payer nothing

I don’t really understand the view that people choose to vote on single issues. I will continue to vote Labour, despite this particular policy being of personal disadvantage to me, because I believe that the party in general offers the best chance to more people to have a better life.

I don’t need to justify to anyone, let alone strangers online, why I have chosen to privately educate my children for a period of time, while I have spent my whole adult life working in state education. However, I do not think that the Conservatives would improve state education in any way, whereas I can hope that a Labour government will at least aim to do so.