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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Discussion over private schools brings out illogical viewpoints, sheer hypocrisy and the worse traits in people?

544 replies

ByPeachJoker · 04/06/2024 23:17

First off, not that it should impact an objective debate, but we do send our son to a private primary school but would consider ourselves middle income earners.

As you can imagine, this is linked to the PMs debate just now, but having read a recent MN thread on a lady who wanted to know how she might be able to avoid paying VAT on school fees should Labour come into power, I was shocked at the vitriol thrown her way. As far as I could tell, the issue wasn't so much that she wanted to avoid the VAT but the majority of comments were coming from people who essentially felt like this lady was somehow getting her comeuppance, that she automatically deserved to suffer some form of penalty just by virtue of choosing to send her DC to a private school. She made a 'bad' choice and should suffer the consequences.

One comment was simply 'how about sending your kids to a state school like 93% of the population'. It completely disregards the fact that there is a child at the heart of this and that a fairly arbitrary tax change is a) going to lead to an additional cost for exactly the same thing and b) for many parents, this change will mean they cannot afford the fees and this may lead to a child's education and social environment being uprooted. I'm not here to necessarily discuss the actual fairness of VAT being imposed on private school fees but more that there is this automatic reaction by a majority of people whenever private schooling is discussed and that this reaction is rooted in nothing logical and is based on the worse of human emotions such that people ignore the fact that many parents are making a financial/lifestyle sacrifice for their children.

Much of it comes from this completely incorrect assumption that you must be wealthy to send your child to a school. I get the impression that many are misinformed and assume that most private schools are like Eton or Harrow and have fees in excess of £20k a year which really is not the case. I think the negativity comes down to the fact that it's people's children that are involved and so people naturally come to see parents who send their kids to private schools as paying for some form of advantage and this being inherently unfair. Now I accept that there are a lot of people who simply could not afford private school fees BUT (and I know this will be incredibly unpopular) to be quite frank, most middle class families can but the parents simply aren't willing to make the financial and lifestyle sacrifice to send their kids to private school and yet they are happy to try and hate on those that do.

Ultimately they might choose to spend their money on a more expensive car, a bigger house, a nicer holiday etc. I used to live in a new build housing development where people in one bedroom flats had brand new Range Rover Sports parked up outside. It was ridiculous that people who could seemingly 'only' afford a 1 bed flat were buying or leasing cars that were almost a third of the value of their home. However we let them make their choice and move on.

Now you can argue about the ethics of private school education but I think those who automatically view parents who send their kids to private school as people who should endure some form of suffering or deserve whatever is coming to them need to look at the hypocrisy they show when compared to their own lifestyle choices but also understand that we're not all millionaires and have actually made a sacrifice for what we hope is the benefit of our children - have you done the same?

OP posts:
Led921900 · 05/06/2024 00:51

I am not sure how I am conflating them when you literally said “The fact that the state provides a free education does not make a private education a 'luxury'.”.

If you don’t think it’s a choice on which it’s perfectly reasonable to pay VAT then there’s no reasoning with you.

Therunecaster · 05/06/2024 00:56

Toastycheeks · 05/06/2024 00:27

Let's play private school thread bingo!

Sacrifice
Scrimp and save
State schools are terrible, yes all of them!
We're not rich no really we're not
Only one car and it's VERY OLD
Only one holiday a year IN A CARAVAN
And we're doing all you peasants a massive favour by magnanimously not taking up a state school place

Any more?

Spot on!

Led921900 · 05/06/2024 00:56

And to add if you say it’s not to argue the merit of VAT then the only other point you’re making is people are being mean about it when potentially they could afford it by forsaking a leased car.
As many many many people have pointed out to you that’s an extremely naive view of the household wealth people have (And very few lease a car at £800 a month).

of course if your child now has to move it’s very sad but 20% on £20k is £4000 a year or £333 a month. I’d be very surprised if the majority of parents sending their kids to private school can’t find that.

4th of July will reveal all I guess.

SnowFrogJelly · 05/06/2024 00:56

noblegiraffe · 04/06/2024 23:44

but also understand that we're not all millionaires and have actually made a sacrifice for what we hope is the benefit of our children - have you done the same?

So your long and boring OP was just a stealth brag about how great a parent you are?

This

CurlsnSunshinetime4tea · 05/06/2024 00:57

i'm not in the uk but my grandchildren are.
all the treads concerning antisocial behavior and disruption in the classroom, children with special needs not being in the right environment etc etc etc
who wants to place their children in that environment given the opportunity to not?
the uk is a very populous country and all the various regions are somewhat different but what mom or dad wants their child in a school with bullies and violence, the threads concerning locked toilets and stupid uniform rules make me want to pull my hair out.
education is a life long journey, you need to learn to enjoy it. honestly i think the experience needs to be sweet and sensible. and i for one don't care about paying for grades or top universities but happy to pay for a gentle introduction to the world. they can figure out the rough unpleasant stuff after the age of 10.

MigGirl · 05/06/2024 00:57

There is of course other options, you don't actually have to send your child to school at all. Many children are happily home educated, some taught in small home educational groups or by their parents or attend local colleges to sit some GCSE'S. You don't have to fork out £££'s for a private school, there are some online schools as well now.

ByPeachJoker · 05/06/2024 00:59

Sparsely · 05/06/2024 00:36

To answer your questions:

  1. Tax avoidance isn't an option for poor people, why should it be an option for rich? As such, tax avoidance is antisocial behaviour and so community doesn't like it. We need everyone to pay their way and at least to be a little ashamed if they try not to.

  2. if you have chosen to reject your community schooling, can you be surprised if your community then rejects you? Whether you intend it or not there's an implicit criticism of what they are doing for their children in your choices. That it's not good enough for your child.

  3. I think objectively if you can afford private school, you are wealthy. YOu'd have to be in the top earners. If you can afford 2 kids at private school (say, £32k a year) you'd need a household income of £65k minimum. So that's top 12%.. More wealthy than 88% of the country.

And there you are with your explicit criticism "parents simply aren't willing to make the financial and lifestyle sacrifice to send their kids to private school " . The average household income is £35k so there is no choice to make a sacrifice for the majority of people. They have no choice.

You also assume that everyone who could afford their child to private school would. I can and I wouldn't send my son to a private school. I don't get the people there and they don't get me. I don't hate them but I don't share their values. I don't really want my son to be like them. I think they many of them are a bit entitled. A bit selfish.

  1. Nice holiday and Range Rovers are luxuries that all have VAT payable on them. Unlike your school fees which is also a luxury.

  2. As others have said, I don't think you have a grip on the real suffering which is happening in this country.

There are measures the schools could take to cut costs so as not to pass the VAT rises on to parents. I imagine there will be mergers and bigger class sizes. Reductions in breadth of courses offered. You know, the sorts of economies state schools have to do and are good enough for the rest of us.

I also think if you value it that much, you'll find a way to fund it. You'll refinance the house or ask for a raise or get a better paid job. You'll rent out a room or start a side hussle.

  1. Tax avoidance was never my point and a simple reference to the original thread I was alluding to. In fact I went out of my way to explain that there is a common reaction to private school parents irrespective of the VAT issue which to be honest, is only a recent thing anyway
  2. I see your logic but disagree. I think for most, it's very much a view that you are paying for something that you perceive to give better value for your children though I accept that it ultimately creates a false divide on the basis that you are in someway 'rejecting' state schooling when actually it's about paying for something that you think is better rather than the alternative not being good enough
  3. I accept that private schooling is not within the reach of many but when making that point, all I am saying is that it is a choice - nothing else. A choice for which we are vilified by a lot of people. If it's a case that we're saying 'yes we should hate anyone who sends their kids to private school because they are higher than average earners and have made the choice' then fair enough but I also thought people were better than that. Also, I'm sure you might put me in the same group but I have to admit, there are a significant group of parents and indeed kids I dislike at my child's school as we are different. However I'd like to think the school alone will not dictate our children's personality/worldview
  4. I think that is a separate debate and something I specifically said I was avoiding as the VAT issue was completely irrelevant in making my main point
  5. I'm still not sure what 'real' suffering has to do with the point I am making. This is what I mean about what appears to me to be an illogical argument - we're essentially saying 'we should hate ppl for earning a bit more than average and the choices they make because there are other ppl suffering'? Is that genuinely what this is boiling down to?
OP posts:
Led921900 · 05/06/2024 01:01

CurlsnSunshinetime4tea · 05/06/2024 00:57

i'm not in the uk but my grandchildren are.
all the treads concerning antisocial behavior and disruption in the classroom, children with special needs not being in the right environment etc etc etc
who wants to place their children in that environment given the opportunity to not?
the uk is a very populous country and all the various regions are somewhat different but what mom or dad wants their child in a school with bullies and violence, the threads concerning locked toilets and stupid uniform rules make me want to pull my hair out.
education is a life long journey, you need to learn to enjoy it. honestly i think the experience needs to be sweet and sensible. and i for one don't care about paying for grades or top universities but happy to pay for a gentle introduction to the world. they can figure out the rough unpleasant stuff after the age of 10.

Aside from the fact that private schools aren’t without violence or bullying (it was only in April we saw the most recent articles on the Blundell hammer attack where two other pupils were attacked)…. And that private schools are also strict about uniform.

Feel free to pay for your grandchildren to go to private school…. With VAT too.

MigGirl · 05/06/2024 01:06

CurlsnSunshinetime4tea · 05/06/2024 00:57

i'm not in the uk but my grandchildren are.
all the treads concerning antisocial behavior and disruption in the classroom, children with special needs not being in the right environment etc etc etc
who wants to place their children in that environment given the opportunity to not?
the uk is a very populous country and all the various regions are somewhat different but what mom or dad wants their child in a school with bullies and violence, the threads concerning locked toilets and stupid uniform rules make me want to pull my hair out.
education is a life long journey, you need to learn to enjoy it. honestly i think the experience needs to be sweet and sensible. and i for one don't care about paying for grades or top universities but happy to pay for a gentle introduction to the world. they can figure out the rough unpleasant stuff after the age of 10.

Most of those issues are really related to high schools so not relevant to under 10's anyway. We did have one child in my DD's class with SEN who led to class evacuations but it wasn't as bad as a lot of people make out on here. My kids primary was very good.

We would probably pay for high school if we had spare money to. But academically wise I don't think it would have made much difference to either child and as they both had a good primary school experience and the college here for A-level's is really good private for these wouldn't be worth it. But then it's probably very area dependent.

Led921900 · 05/06/2024 01:06

ByPeachJoker · 05/06/2024 00:59

  1. Tax avoidance was never my point and a simple reference to the original thread I was alluding to. In fact I went out of my way to explain that there is a common reaction to private school parents irrespective of the VAT issue which to be honest, is only a recent thing anyway
  2. I see your logic but disagree. I think for most, it's very much a view that you are paying for something that you perceive to give better value for your children though I accept that it ultimately creates a false divide on the basis that you are in someway 'rejecting' state schooling when actually it's about paying for something that you think is better rather than the alternative not being good enough
  3. I accept that private schooling is not within the reach of many but when making that point, all I am saying is that it is a choice - nothing else. A choice for which we are vilified by a lot of people. If it's a case that we're saying 'yes we should hate anyone who sends their kids to private school because they are higher than average earners and have made the choice' then fair enough but I also thought people were better than that. Also, I'm sure you might put me in the same group but I have to admit, there are a significant group of parents and indeed kids I dislike at my child's school as we are different. However I'd like to think the school alone will not dictate our children's personality/worldview
  4. I think that is a separate debate and something I specifically said I was avoiding as the VAT issue was completely irrelevant in making my main point
  5. I'm still not sure what 'real' suffering has to do with the point I am making. This is what I mean about what appears to me to be an illogical argument - we're essentially saying 'we should hate ppl for earning a bit more than average and the choices they make because there are other ppl suffering'? Is that genuinely what this is boiling down to?

Still trying to understand your point so you’re vilified for sending your kids to private school?
Maybe online when the people who can afford private school in general are moaning about a 20% increase but face to face? In real life?
Certainly those in my family who use private education have never had a cross word about it.
In fact no one on this thread has vilified you except the general points you’ve made on making sacrifices and thinking it’s in her real affordable if you give up your leased car. 🤷🏻‍♀️

very odd post OP and I don’t really know what you want from it? People agreeing to all be nice to each other on the internet seems a bit of a stretch.

ByPeachJoker · 05/06/2024 01:06

PeppermintPorpoise · 05/06/2024 00:34

People going to university benefits society as a whole. People need to be trained to do jobs and know things for the benefit of us all. It should be aggressively subsidized (or free!). Our kids going to private school doesnt benefit anyone but them. Its not remotely the same.

People who have a degree are statistically likely to have a much higher salary so I think it most certainly does benefit the individual hence why universities in most countries, and now England and Wales, have always charged a tuition fee.

OP posts:
ByPeachJoker · 05/06/2024 01:13

Led921900 · 05/06/2024 01:06

Still trying to understand your point so you’re vilified for sending your kids to private school?
Maybe online when the people who can afford private school in general are moaning about a 20% increase but face to face? In real life?
Certainly those in my family who use private education have never had a cross word about it.
In fact no one on this thread has vilified you except the general points you’ve made on making sacrifices and thinking it’s in her real affordable if you give up your leased car. 🤷🏻‍♀️

very odd post OP and I don’t really know what you want from it? People agreeing to all be nice to each other on the internet seems a bit of a stretch.

I don't know - maybe I am naïve. I've just grown up having always seen this negative perception of private schooling and now being in a position to send my child to a private school and seeing the intense and immediate reactions from people just seems odd. At this stage it's really no different to people's reactions to those who insist on shopping at Waitrose or M&S.

Granted I made a few general points but most people just wanted to justify the VAT or explain why private school is bad though I guess it's all part and parcel of people's views on the matter.

OP posts:
JadeandGreen · 05/06/2024 01:15

"have actually made a sacrifice for what we hope is the benefit of our children - have you done the same?"
😂😂😂Sacrifice, you wouldn't know sacrifice if it came up and smacked you in the face!

"it is a 'luxury' to have a car or spend £60 at the supermarket"
Are you seriously comparing this to sending children to private school??

The privilege is oozing out of every post you make OP! You have no argument here, because you are wrong!

And no, I truly do not care if parents are able to give their child a private education. What I do care about is the parents who think everyone is jealous of this. They're not! They are just sick to death of hearing about those who can afford it, bleating about "sacrifices" and "we work hard to pay for this" because they are probably now going to have to pay a little extra every year!

TheRomanticOutlaw · 05/06/2024 01:16

Pieceofpurplesky · 04/06/2024 23:54

I think people don't get what sacrifices are - having a UK holiday rather than going abroad, or driving an older car are not sacrifices.

A sacrifice is a mother who goes without food so that her kids can eat.

This. I really can't feel much sympathy for anyone who only has to give up a few luxuries to be able to afford private school fees. You're not 'struggling' to afford school fees or making 'sacrifices'. Your just choosing to spend your money on luxury school instead of a luxury car/house/holiday etc.

Pepsiisbetterthancoke · 05/06/2024 01:16

At this stage it's really no different to people's reactions to those who insist on shopping at Waitrose or M&S.

If this is what you really think then you are very naive

ByPeachJoker · 05/06/2024 01:21

Led921900 · 05/06/2024 00:51

I am not sure how I am conflating them when you literally said “The fact that the state provides a free education does not make a private education a 'luxury'.”.

If you don’t think it’s a choice on which it’s perfectly reasonable to pay VAT then there’s no reasoning with you.

It was because you said there was no reasoning with me if I thought having £1.5k a month to spend on fees wasn't a luxury.

What I said was that for the purposes of VAT I don't see it as a 'luxury' as an education up until the age of 16 is a legal requirement and not a luxury, whether paid or not. Having the choice is the luxury.

As I said before, this thread was never to debate the merits of charging VAT on school fees but something I was drawn into.

OP posts:
Led921900 · 05/06/2024 01:23

ByPeachJoker · 05/06/2024 01:13

I don't know - maybe I am naïve. I've just grown up having always seen this negative perception of private schooling and now being in a position to send my child to a private school and seeing the intense and immediate reactions from people just seems odd. At this stage it's really no different to people's reactions to those who insist on shopping at Waitrose or M&S.

Granted I made a few general points but most people just wanted to justify the VAT or explain why private school is bad though I guess it's all part and parcel of people's views on the matter.

“most people just wanted to justify the VAT or explain why private school is bad.”

but OP nobody is saying that private schools are bad?

and

”I've just grown up having always seen this negative perception of private schooling”.

The negative perception isn’t about the schooling itself it’s about the fact it perpetuates privilege so that the rich get advantages that are not available to most of us (as has been explained numerous times with regards to people’s actual take home salaries to you). You can see just an advantage it confers when you can pay for an education which puts your children at an immediate advantage for the top an elite universities.

No-one is being mean for the sake of it or going after the parents just because.
I think you need to be less defensive and more empathetic to parents who would love to help their children achieve a good education, degree and career but simply find it’s beyond their means and confined as a specific opportunity to wealthy parents. As well as a general sense it’s fundamentally unfair. The problem is not with the parents.

ByPeachJoker · 05/06/2024 01:25

Pepsiisbetterthancoke · 05/06/2024 01:16

At this stage it's really no different to people's reactions to those who insist on shopping at Waitrose or M&S.

If this is what you really think then you are very naive

Why? What this whole nonsense seemingly boils down to is an acceptance to just hate people for not living in poverty and then choosing to spend their money on things which are perceived as 'out of reach' for 'normal' people who we've now decided are those below the breadline and have to give up food for their kids.

The preface of my OP was to question this and this is exactly what has played out.

OP posts:
TheRomanticOutlaw · 05/06/2024 01:29

noblegiraffe · 05/06/2024 00:03

It's not prejudice about people who pay for a private education, it's the suggestion that

  1. if you didn't buy a nice car you'd be able to afford private education
  2. people who buy private education are better parents ('can you say that you have made sacrifices for your kids' is just a line begging to to told to fuck off)

I don't blame people who can afford private education for their kids for getting them out of state education which is currently in a shit state due to 14 years of Tory neglect.

What I do mind is the constant banging on about how this fucking VAT policy that might adversely affect a minority of kids when the vast majority of kids have had to put up with endless cuts and shitty provision for years to basically radio silence and no shit-giving. More threads about that fucking policy in weeks than about state education in months.

And I certainly object to the idea that people should vote fucking Tory who will continue to screw over the vast majority of children so that a minority of children's parents can continue to buy their way out of the mess and continue to not give a shit about all the other kids.

👏👏👏

Led921900 · 05/06/2024 01:29

I always thought m&s quite working class, St Michels food was always a bit of a working class treat as an alternative for eating out.

again OP “just hate people for not living in poverty” this is all in your head. No one has had a go at you for being able to afford it.

as a funny aside “champagne problems” by Taylor swift has just come on my playlist and thought it was very apt and timely now to sign off!

All the best to you and your children and their education but OP, chill out and potentially start saving for your VAT bill.

ByPeachJoker · 05/06/2024 01:32

Led921900 · 05/06/2024 01:23

“most people just wanted to justify the VAT or explain why private school is bad.”

but OP nobody is saying that private schools are bad?

and

”I've just grown up having always seen this negative perception of private schooling”.

The negative perception isn’t about the schooling itself it’s about the fact it perpetuates privilege so that the rich get advantages that are not available to most of us (as has been explained numerous times with regards to people’s actual take home salaries to you). You can see just an advantage it confers when you can pay for an education which puts your children at an immediate advantage for the top an elite universities.

No-one is being mean for the sake of it or going after the parents just because.
I think you need to be less defensive and more empathetic to parents who would love to help their children achieve a good education, degree and career but simply find it’s beyond their means and confined as a specific opportunity to wealthy parents. As well as a general sense it’s fundamentally unfair. The problem is not with the parents.

I think people including yourself are indirectly saying private schools are inherently bad due to the perceived or actual unfair advantage it bestows and that is fair enough. I am empathetic to those who cannot afford private schooling and to use the phrase again - I suppose it is naïve of me to think people would be ok with this and just treat people who take advantage of this nicely or see them as the same (regardless of their salary or social standing). This advantage is no different to private healthcare I suppose and being able to pay for access to immediate healthcare.

OP posts:
TheShellBeach · 05/06/2024 01:35

What this whole nonsense seemingly boils down to is an acceptance to just hate people for not living in poverty and then choosing to spend their money on things which are perceived as 'out of reach' for 'normal' people who we've now decided are those below the breadline and have to give up food for their kids.

But there are two threads on here at the moment, where women actually are giving up food for their kids.

Have you even seen the threads about the child benefit not going into people's accounts in Monday?

Some people couldn't buy food or top up their electricity keys because they were relying on that money going in.

You're so out of touch, OP.

These threads about VAT on private school fees make me really angry.

You just haven't got a clue, have you?
Hmm

Willyoujustbequiet · 05/06/2024 01:35

Janedoe82 · 05/06/2024 00:00

Private school parent here who works with actual disadvantaged families. I can 100% see why many people aren’t fans of private schools. The inequality is vastly unfair. A lot of private school parents are out of touch with reality and frankly prats and their children can also be prat’s.
So basically I think suck it up. Spend your money as you like if you feel it is benefiting your children (I did it and kids loved it), but put your big girl pants on and stop gurning about people not liking you for using private schools!

This.

Its going to happen. Deal with it. Just as many other groups have had to deal with worse.

ByPeachJoker · 05/06/2024 01:36

Led921900 · 05/06/2024 01:29

I always thought m&s quite working class, St Michels food was always a bit of a working class treat as an alternative for eating out.

again OP “just hate people for not living in poverty” this is all in your head. No one has had a go at you for being able to afford it.

as a funny aside “champagne problems” by Taylor swift has just come on my playlist and thought it was very apt and timely now to sign off!

All the best to you and your children and their education but OP, chill out and potentially start saving for your VAT bill.

I don't know - I'm a Sainsburys person myself with the odd trip to Aldi...

For what it's worth (which probably isn't a lot) - I'll be voting Labour. I might not come across like it, but I do vote for what I think is for the greater good and not just what will benefit me...

OP posts:
TheShellBeach · 05/06/2024 01:36

I am empathetic to those who cannot afford private schooling

No, you're not.