Discussion over private schools brings out illogical viewpoints, sheer hypocrisy and the worse traits in people?

[ByPeachJoker]

First off, not that it should impact an objective debate, but we do send our son to a private primary school but would consider ourselves middle income earners.

As you can imagine, this is linked to the PMs debate just now, but having read a recent MN thread on a lady who wanted to know how she might be able to avoid paying VAT on school fees should Labour come into power, I was shocked at the vitriol thrown her way. As far as I could tell, the issue wasn't so much that she wanted to avoid the VAT but the majority of comments were coming from people who essentially felt like this lady was somehow getting her comeuppance, that she automatically deserved to suffer some form of penalty just by virtue of choosing to send her DC to a private school. She made a 'bad' choice and should suffer the consequences.

One comment was simply 'how about sending your kids to a state school like 93% of the population'. It completely disregards the fact that there is a child at the heart of this and that a fairly arbitrary tax change is a) going to lead to an additional cost for exactly the same thing and b) for many parents, this change will mean they cannot afford the fees and this may lead to a child's education and social environment being uprooted. I'm not here to necessarily discuss the actual fairness of VAT being imposed on private school fees but more that there is this automatic reaction by a majority of people whenever private schooling is discussed and that this reaction is rooted in nothing logical and is based on the worse of human emotions such that people ignore the fact that many parents are making a financial/lifestyle sacrifice for their children.

Much of it comes from this completely incorrect assumption that you must be wealthy to send your child to a school. I get the impression that many are misinformed and assume that most private schools are like Eton or Harrow and have fees in excess of £20k a year which really is not the case. I think the negativity comes down to the fact that it's people's children that are involved and so people naturally come to see parents who send their kids to private schools as paying for some form of advantage and this being inherently unfair. Now I accept that there are a lot of people who simply could not afford private school fees BUT (and I know this will be incredibly unpopular) to be quite frank, most middle class families can but the parents simply aren't willing to make the financial and lifestyle sacrifice to send their kids to private school and yet they are happy to try and hate on those that do.

Ultimately they might choose to spend their money on a more expensive car, a bigger house, a nicer holiday etc. I used to live in a new build housing development where people in one bedroom flats had brand new Range Rover Sports parked up outside. It was ridiculous that people who could seemingly 'only' afford a 1 bed flat were buying or leasing cars that were almost a third of the value of their home. However we let them make their choice and move on.

Now you can argue about the ethics of private school education but I think those who automatically view parents who send their kids to private school as people who should endure some form of suffering or deserve whatever is coming to them need to look at the hypocrisy they show when compared to their own lifestyle choices but also understand that we're not all millionaires and have actually made a sacrifice for what we hope is the benefit of our children - have you done the same?

I’m from a working class family, when I went to university I got a job working the weekends in a bookies so I could get by. I spent the weekends there getting covered in smoke (showing my age but was just before the time smoking was banned in pubs/bookies).
Whilst at Uni I completely ran out of money twice. The University granted me money from their hardship fund twice (I say granted, 50% was added to my loan). In order to get it you have to hand over your bank statements so they can check your spending habits are sensible. My parents gave me a total of £250 during my course which was when I turned 21.

I often wonder how naive you have to be to not understand that there are hard working people who can barely afford their essentials. And it’s a grim experience I tell you.

As I said previously it’s perfectly reasonable for parents to be asked to pay VAT, especially when they have the alternative of a free state education for their children.

We’re not all driving around in range rovers.

Yep, like 'we don't go to Barbados, we go to Spain' or 'we drive a ten year old car instead of a brand new one' like those are terrible deprivations instead of a good holiday and a normal car for the vast majority.

What's your point? Some people could afford private school if they prioritised their spending differently?

You may encounter a few people who feel envious of parents who pay for private schooling but most people simply don't care end yet here you are starting yet another thread about the sacrifices parents have to make to afford private education whilst the CoL means other parents are foregoing essentials to provide for their children.

No one is starting a thread complaining about the fuel and insurance on a car which costs £800 a month to lease.

I think you are missing the point; it's tone deaf and the issue doesn't affect enough people for the majority to care. You seem to think it's superior money management skills which enable you to afford it in the first place; I'm sure you'll be just fine.

"endure some form of suffering"
Aka, paying vat on something they have bought , like everybody else.

Yep, it's your choice to choose private education. The people you mention who choose to do unworthy things like buy cars , PAY VAT.
And so should you .

This is the problem with MN - the post was about Point A and never about point B but a thread is always hijacked to turn the discussion into point B. As I mentioned in my OP, it wasn't to discuss the merits of VAT but as you insist on getting my view - I think your classification of 'private education' as a luxury lifestyle choice in completely wrong.

The fact that the state provides a free education does not make a private education a 'luxury'. In fact, the state legally requires my children to be in full time education whereas no one is legally required to have a car or go on holiday. To use your same logic, VAT should then be applied on university fees as that charges a fee and it would also fall within a luxury lifestyle choice which I disagree with. I've yet to see a valid argument for private school fees being singled out as subject to VAT other than the fact that a political party has decided to implement it to show working class people that they will be taxing the 'rich'. In fact as far as I can tell, all that will happen is state schools will become more overcrowded and/or ppl who were paying school fees will now use that money to rent in high demand catchment areas to take places at 'outstanding' state schools furthering the gap between state and private school education.

Lots of people make sacrifices simply to feed and cloth their child let alone buying them privilege and advantage.
AND THEY PAY VAT.

Why should your "sacrifice" be VAT free?

Let's play private school thread bingo!

Sacrifice
Scrimp and save
State schools are terrible, yes all of them!
We're not rich no really we're not
Only one car and it's VERY OLD
Only one holiday a year IN A CARAVAN
And we're doing all you peasants a massive favour by magnanimously not taking up a state school place

Any more?

Private education IS a luxury that only 7% of the population can afford - it's a choice. You won't listen though as you are so blinkered and have obviously never been short of money.

University is open to all who achieve. How that works, as witnessed on her often, is many parents can give their kids a lot more to live on and pay their fees/accommodation. Those of us who can't help out feel shit but our kids manage and do it anyway

In fact as far as I can tell, all that will happen is state schools will become more overcrowded and/or ppl who were paying school fees will now use that money to rent in high demand catchment areas to take places at 'outstanding' state schools furthering the gap between state and private school education.

It really pisses me off that the only time private school parents give a shit about kids in state schools is when they think they can use them as an argument in their favour.

14 years of Tory underfunding, crumbling buildings, no teachers. But the real issue that we need to talk about at length is that they might have more kids in their class if this pesky VAT policy comes in.

Have you seen on here recently the number of threads by parents on higher wages struggling while paying nursery fees. Yes maybe if they tighten their belts a bit they would be able to carry on paying for private schools in the primary school years. But it does carry on getting more expensive as they get older and maybe they would like to pay for the DC to have a few other things in life not just an expensive education. Life experiences can be just as important as education.

The private education sector has changed massively over the years also.
Take us as an example. DH went to a private high school, his parents could aford it as his mums salary paid for his school fees. His Dad's salary paid the mortgage and the bills. His sister didn't pass the entrance exam so she didn't get in. Now skip 30 years, technically we are more qualified then his parents and earn better wages but can't afford to send either one of our children private. Why? Because we need both our wages to pay the mortgage and bills, we drive old cars and holiday in the UK before anyone asks. Relatively you have to be richer now then 30 years ago to aford private school, as bills are higher for everything.

Oh and whoever was noting cars as wealth, I know quite a few people who get fancy cars as a company perks. So they aren't necessarily paying for the whole thing themselves.

This is where you’re at odds with all of us then OP.
If you fundamentally don’t think finding £1k- £1.5k a month to spend on a private education is a luxury then there’s no reasoning with you. The majority of the population would love to have a few hundred pounds spare at the end of each month… and not because they’re driving round in range rovers.

sigh.

I lived in a two bedroom flat above a shop until I was 18 and shared a small room with my sibling. The first time I went abroad was when I was 20 as we couldn't afford holidays - whilst I wasn't on the street, I do understand something other than fancy holidays and nice cars. Saying that, not everything has to be brought down to the lowest level of poverty.

Essentially everyone's argument seems to be 'it's ok to hate private school parents because there are people eating out of dustbins' - doesn't seem like a logical flow of thought to me.

It's interesting that you think most middle class families could afford private schools if they were willing to make the necessary sacrifices. I think this is wildly inaccurate, and I suspect that you're actually quite out of touch with how much disposable income "most middle class families" might have.

However, it also suggests that you may have been one of those parents who has overstretched themselves by sending their children to private schools when they can't really afford it. You might perceive this as making sacrifices. Others might see it as poor planning and inadequate risk management.

Many of the parents that you think could have afforded private education may simply have considered it too risky to enter into such a significant financial commitment without a sufficient buffer to protect against fee rises, changes in income etc. Of course, it's OK to do it on a very tight budget if you have a very adaptable and capable child who won't be worried about moving, but most parents would prefer to avoid moving their kids midway through their education if possible. Talk about potential VAT on fees has been around for quite some time, so most will have factored this into their calculations as one consideration. Once that buffer is factored in, the whole thing will start to look much less affordable to many. And of course, there will be many more who do the cost-benefit analysis and conclude that, even if they could afford it, the investment simply isn't the best use of family funds.

For me, it isn't about private school families getting "their comeuppance". I bear no ill will towards the children at private schools, but I don't actually believe that this policy will affect that many at all. Pretty much all of the private school families we know will just absorb the cost because they don't want to move their kids. I accept that there will be a minority whose parents haven't planned adequately who may have to move, and I do feel genuinely sorry for those kids but I still think that the policy is fair overall. VAT is charged on non-essential goods and services, and as far as I'm concerned, private school fees do fall into that category.

If parents were to start threads asking for advice on how best to support their children's transition to the state sector, or how to make the savings needed to keep their kids where they are, then I would have every sympathy and would try to help. What I find intensely irritating, though, is the constant whingeing from some of the most privileged in our society (and yes, those of us who can even contemplate private education for our kids are privileged) about having to pay a bit of extra tax. Just get over it and stop feeling so hard done by.

People going to university benefits society as a whole. People need to be trained to do jobs and know things for the benefit of us all. It should be aggressively subsidized (or free!). Our kids going to private school doesnt benefit anyone but them. Its not remotely the same.

Essentially everyone's argument seems to be 'it's ok to hate private school parents because there are people eating out of dustbins' - doesn't seem like a logical flow of thought to me.

More like 'private school parents shouldn't expect much sympathy from state school parents when complaining that buying their kids out of state education is getting more expensive'.

To answer your questions:

1. Tax avoidance isn't an option for poor people, why should it be an option for rich? As such, tax avoidance is antisocial behaviour and so community doesn't like it. We need everyone to pay their way and at least to be a little ashamed if they try not to.

2. if you have chosen to reject your community schooling, can you be surprised if your community then rejects you? Whether you intend it or not there's an implicit criticism of what they are doing for their children in your choices. That it's not good enough for your child.

3. I think objectively if you can afford private school, you are wealthy. YOu'd have to be in the top earners. If you can afford 2 kids at private school (say, £32k a year) you'd need a household income of £65k minimum. So that's top 12%.. More wealthy than 88% of the country.

And there you are with your explicit criticism "parents simply aren't willing to make the financial and lifestyle sacrifice to send their kids to private school " . The average household income is £35k so there is no choice to make a sacrifice for the majority of people. They have no choice.

You also assume that everyone who could afford their child to private school would. I can and I wouldn't send my son to a private school. I don't get the people there and they don't get me. I don't hate them but I don't share their values. I don't really want my son to be like them. I think they many of them are a bit entitled. A bit selfish.

4. Nice holiday and Range Rovers are luxuries that all have VAT payable on them. Unlike your school fees which is also a luxury.

5. As others have said, I don't think you have a grip on the real suffering which is happening in this country.

There are measures the schools could take to cut costs so as not to pass the VAT rises on to parents. I imagine there will be mergers and bigger class sizes. Reductions in breadth of courses offered. You know, the sorts of economies state schools have to do and are good enough for the rest of us.

I also think if you value it that much, you'll find a way to fund it. You'll refinance the house or ask for a raise or get a better paid job. You'll rent out a room or start a side hussle.

Fabulous post @Sparsely , couldn’t agree more with what you have said

No but you misunderstand the point as that was made in relation to someone else asking me about whether I think VAT should be charged on school fees.

I don't dispute it is a 'luxury' to have money to spend on private education in the same way that (seeing as everyone like to do this), it is a 'luxury' to have a car or spend £60 at the supermarket. What I'm saying is that for VAT purposes I don't see a distinction between private and state education - that we can disagree on happily but please don't conflate the two issues.

How can I pay VAT on something I'm not buying?

OP, you don't get it.

It really isn't that people hate private school parents because some people don't have enough to eat.

It's more that people don't think that relatively wealthy families paying a bit more tax is a big deal. And they don't think that children going to state schools because their parents can't afford private is a big deal either... this is just the norm for most people.

And yes, it is unfortunate if parents have overstretched themselves and suddenly find that they can no longer afford the school fees. It is rough on those kids that they will have to move away from their friends, but that has always been a risk for parents choosing to use private schools without a sufficient financial cushion in place. And kids move schools for many other reasons as well, e.g. if parents change jobs or of families break up and have to relocate etc. It isn't ideal but it isn't the end of the world either.

So it isn't that we hate you or your kids. We just don't see having to move to a state school as being a serious problem in the way that, say, kids not having enough to eat is a serious problem. In the grand scheme of things, it's a pretty trivial problem.

They could levy VAT on State schooling too but it would be a bit of a waste of money, 20% of £0 = £0

Superb post, @Sparsely. Very well said.

@Sparsely thanks, thought I'd lost the plot for a moment there.

The whole debate on private schools is laughable in my opinion, have a look at the University destinations of the leavers at many of the so called prestigious private schools. One near me costs £30k per year, you will have heard of it, and they sent most pupils to Oxford Brookes Poly, sorry Uni last year, social science's was the most popular subject.
Let the silly buggers pay £200K for the privilege, mine went to the local comp one is now doing a PhD in chemical engineering at a RG Uni. Other one is a doctor living in Aussie after a RG medical degree.
Don't charge them an extra 20% just let them carry on wasting their money, of course it works for some but most will end up with an ology back at home brewing coffee for a living. Saves the state paying for it.

Would it upset you if I told you sate schools don't pay Vat on anything they buy either. 🤔