Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Discussion over private schools brings out illogical viewpoints, sheer hypocrisy and the worse traits in people?

544 replies

ByPeachJoker · 04/06/2024 23:17

First off, not that it should impact an objective debate, but we do send our son to a private primary school but would consider ourselves middle income earners.

As you can imagine, this is linked to the PMs debate just now, but having read a recent MN thread on a lady who wanted to know how she might be able to avoid paying VAT on school fees should Labour come into power, I was shocked at the vitriol thrown her way. As far as I could tell, the issue wasn't so much that she wanted to avoid the VAT but the majority of comments were coming from people who essentially felt like this lady was somehow getting her comeuppance, that she automatically deserved to suffer some form of penalty just by virtue of choosing to send her DC to a private school. She made a 'bad' choice and should suffer the consequences.

One comment was simply 'how about sending your kids to a state school like 93% of the population'. It completely disregards the fact that there is a child at the heart of this and that a fairly arbitrary tax change is a) going to lead to an additional cost for exactly the same thing and b) for many parents, this change will mean they cannot afford the fees and this may lead to a child's education and social environment being uprooted. I'm not here to necessarily discuss the actual fairness of VAT being imposed on private school fees but more that there is this automatic reaction by a majority of people whenever private schooling is discussed and that this reaction is rooted in nothing logical and is based on the worse of human emotions such that people ignore the fact that many parents are making a financial/lifestyle sacrifice for their children.

Much of it comes from this completely incorrect assumption that you must be wealthy to send your child to a school. I get the impression that many are misinformed and assume that most private schools are like Eton or Harrow and have fees in excess of £20k a year which really is not the case. I think the negativity comes down to the fact that it's people's children that are involved and so people naturally come to see parents who send their kids to private schools as paying for some form of advantage and this being inherently unfair. Now I accept that there are a lot of people who simply could not afford private school fees BUT (and I know this will be incredibly unpopular) to be quite frank, most middle class families can but the parents simply aren't willing to make the financial and lifestyle sacrifice to send their kids to private school and yet they are happy to try and hate on those that do.

Ultimately they might choose to spend their money on a more expensive car, a bigger house, a nicer holiday etc. I used to live in a new build housing development where people in one bedroom flats had brand new Range Rover Sports parked up outside. It was ridiculous that people who could seemingly 'only' afford a 1 bed flat were buying or leasing cars that were almost a third of the value of their home. However we let them make their choice and move on.

Now you can argue about the ethics of private school education but I think those who automatically view parents who send their kids to private school as people who should endure some form of suffering or deserve whatever is coming to them need to look at the hypocrisy they show when compared to their own lifestyle choices but also understand that we're not all millionaires and have actually made a sacrifice for what we hope is the benefit of our children - have you done the same?

OP posts:
Heatherbell1978 · 13/06/2024 13:09

@Aladdinzane to be clear, it isn't a 'VAT exemption' or a 'tax break' because tax on education currently doesn't exist so it isn't exempt from it. This narrative implies that we tax education but not private schools. I see this trotted out everywhere. What it is, is 'the introduction of tax on education'. Doesn't sound quite as good though does it?

Aladdinzane · 13/06/2024 13:14

It is a tax break really though isn't it?

How about " a tax on a luxury not available to 93% of the population"? Sounds better :)

Alwayssomethingup · 13/06/2024 13:23

Aladdinzane · 13/06/2024 13:14

It is a tax break really though isn't it?

How about " a tax on a luxury not available to 93% of the population"? Sounds better :)

In what way is it not available to 93% of the population??!

Aladdinzane · 13/06/2024 13:25

@Alwayssomethingup

Because its only used by 7% of the population (rough figure).

The vast majority of private school households are in the top income decile, it only actually becomes 5% of children educated once you reach the 95th percentile .

Most of the population, no matter how they juggle the finances, wouldn't be able to afford it.

Alwayssomethingup · 13/06/2024 13:29

Aladdinzane · 13/06/2024 13:25

@Alwayssomethingup

Because its only used by 7% of the population (rough figure).

The vast majority of private school households are in the top income decile, it only actually becomes 5% of children educated once you reach the 95th percentile .

Most of the population, no matter how they juggle the finances, wouldn't be able to afford it.

Don’t be ridiculous.. it may only be used by 7% but it is still ‘available’ to all. Your choice of language to justify your arguments really undermines your intelligence - you sound like a politician rather than an economist.

Aladdinzane · 13/06/2024 13:31

"but it is still ‘available’ to all."

It really isn't available to all, the fees are a significant barrier to entry.

"Your choice of language to justify your arguments really undermines your intelligence -"

You got that this was in response to someone else who was using language in exactly the same way?

Alwayssomethingup · 13/06/2024 13:41

The language of VAT stopping a tax break?? There is no tax break currently, there is no tax on education.. by law. Putting VAT on private schools is a NEW tax, as has been pointed out many times.

Of course fees are a barrier to entry, but saying private education isn’t available to all is incorrect. Moreover, only 7% may use it, but many many more choose not to use it who could afford it. So stating that it is not available (by virtue of it not being affordable) to 93% of the population is ridiculous on both counts.

Pepsiisbetterthancoke · 13/06/2024 13:43

Labour manifesto launch on National Social Mobility day. Either genius PR or happy accident.

But a great day to highlight the discrepancy between the 93% and the 7% and how people have had to fight for their opportunities without mummy and daddy’s (or grandparents) bank balance

EarthlyNightshade · 13/06/2024 13:49

Alwayssomethingup · 13/06/2024 13:29

Don’t be ridiculous.. it may only be used by 7% but it is still ‘available’ to all. Your choice of language to justify your arguments really undermines your intelligence - you sound like a politician rather than an economist.

Do you really think it's available to all?

What about the fees? I know quite a few who couldn't dream of paying that.

Heatherbell1978 · 13/06/2024 14:00

So to be clear, private school is not available to all because it has significant barriers to entry due to the fees. So we should tax it. Are you're trying to say this isn't politics of envy?? There are many things that aren't available to me as I can't afford them but I don't think that justifies adding additional taxes to them to level the playing field.

Alwayssomethingup · 13/06/2024 14:06

Heatherbell1978 · 13/06/2024 14:00

So to be clear, private school is not available to all because it has significant barriers to entry due to the fees. So we should tax it. Are you're trying to say this isn't politics of envy?? There are many things that aren't available to me as I can't afford them but I don't think that justifies adding additional taxes to them to level the playing field.

Very well said

NeverDropYourMooncup · 13/06/2024 14:07

Alwayssomethingup · 13/06/2024 13:29

Don’t be ridiculous.. it may only be used by 7% but it is still ‘available’ to all. Your choice of language to justify your arguments really undermines your intelligence - you sound like a politician rather than an economist.

No, it isn't. Because it requires a significantly higher income and specifically significantly higher disposable income to access. Have that income and there will be a private school somewhere that will take their child.

Alwayssomethingup · 13/06/2024 14:14

NeverDropYourMooncup · 13/06/2024 14:07

No, it isn't. Because it requires a significantly higher income and specifically significantly higher disposable income to access. Have that income and there will be a private school somewhere that will take their child.

Yes, I agree that fees are a barrier, but my point remains that PE is available to FAR more than 93% of the population, so this 93% vs 7% stat is being deliberately used to mislead. Wouldn’t it be nice if a good state education was ‘available to all’.

Movinghouseatlast · 13/06/2024 14:18

Heatherbell1978 · 13/06/2024 14:00

So to be clear, private school is not available to all because it has significant barriers to entry due to the fees. So we should tax it. Are you're trying to say this isn't politics of envy?? There are many things that aren't available to me as I can't afford them but I don't think that justifies adding additional taxes to them to level the playing field.

Additional taxes are added to luxury items- cars, holidays etc etc.

I count my privilege every day. I went to an independent school and my life has been SO different to the life I would have had without it. But I am very aware I was privileged to get these opportunities.

You point about envy is ridiculous frankly. It really shows you as someone who puts people into boxes, the haves and have not's. It sounds like you think the have not's should be doffing their caps at you.

Morph22010 · 13/06/2024 14:42

Movinghouseatlast · 13/06/2024 14:18

Additional taxes are added to luxury items- cars, holidays etc etc.

I count my privilege every day. I went to an independent school and my life has been SO different to the life I would have had without it. But I am very aware I was privileged to get these opportunities.

You point about envy is ridiculous frankly. It really shows you as someone who puts people into boxes, the haves and have not's. It sounds like you think the have not's should be doffing their caps at you.

But vat is added to all cars not just luxury cars, it’s also added to commercial vehicles like vans and lorries, are you saying those are luxuries?

holidays abroad in the Maldives dont have uk vat on but holidays in the uk at butlins do, do you are saying butlins is a luxury?

vat isn’t a tax on luxuries it’s a goods and services tax from which some goods and services are exempt and some have a zero rating

LemonPeonies · 13/06/2024 14:56

Barbadossunset · 13/06/2024 08:39

LemonPeonies · Today 08:31
I don't like how those parents look down their noses at state schools either.

You obviously look down on private schools which is no different to private school parents looking down on state schools.

It's clearly not the same thing as thinking you're/ your children are better than others for affording something that's quite frankly a waste of money is it? I can bet what side you lie on...

Barbadossunset · 13/06/2024 15:33

It's clearly not the same thing as thinking you're/ your children are better than others for affording something that's quite frankly a waste of money is it?

@LemonPeonies why is it not the same thing?

Heatherbell1978 · 13/06/2024 16:18

@Movinghouseatlast and where in my comments have I suggested I'm not aware of my privilege? Unlike you I actually went to a state school and both my DC are currently at state schools. I fundamentally disagree with taxing education. Of any kind. And the arguments being trotted out just don't make sense. Because many can't afford it shouldn't be a reason in itself to tax something but that's what these comments are implying.

Aladdinzane · 13/06/2024 18:29

"Of course fees are a barrier to entry, but saying private education isn’t available to all is incorrect."

Ok, as we are playing semantics ( the last refuge of people losing a debate) private full time education is only available to a very small amount of people. In terms of population educated in private schools its currently 5.5 percent or so, and the number of the population educated in private school is 7%.

Children who come from the top household income decile are by far the largest group that are privately educated, in every income decile other than that the proportion of children that are privately educated is close to 0.

This clearly demonstrates that full time private education is not available to all.

New posts on this thread. Refresh page