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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Discussion over private schools brings out illogical viewpoints, sheer hypocrisy and the worse traits in people?

544 replies

ByPeachJoker · 04/06/2024 23:17

First off, not that it should impact an objective debate, but we do send our son to a private primary school but would consider ourselves middle income earners.

As you can imagine, this is linked to the PMs debate just now, but having read a recent MN thread on a lady who wanted to know how she might be able to avoid paying VAT on school fees should Labour come into power, I was shocked at the vitriol thrown her way. As far as I could tell, the issue wasn't so much that she wanted to avoid the VAT but the majority of comments were coming from people who essentially felt like this lady was somehow getting her comeuppance, that she automatically deserved to suffer some form of penalty just by virtue of choosing to send her DC to a private school. She made a 'bad' choice and should suffer the consequences.

One comment was simply 'how about sending your kids to a state school like 93% of the population'. It completely disregards the fact that there is a child at the heart of this and that a fairly arbitrary tax change is a) going to lead to an additional cost for exactly the same thing and b) for many parents, this change will mean they cannot afford the fees and this may lead to a child's education and social environment being uprooted. I'm not here to necessarily discuss the actual fairness of VAT being imposed on private school fees but more that there is this automatic reaction by a majority of people whenever private schooling is discussed and that this reaction is rooted in nothing logical and is based on the worse of human emotions such that people ignore the fact that many parents are making a financial/lifestyle sacrifice for their children.

Much of it comes from this completely incorrect assumption that you must be wealthy to send your child to a school. I get the impression that many are misinformed and assume that most private schools are like Eton or Harrow and have fees in excess of £20k a year which really is not the case. I think the negativity comes down to the fact that it's people's children that are involved and so people naturally come to see parents who send their kids to private schools as paying for some form of advantage and this being inherently unfair. Now I accept that there are a lot of people who simply could not afford private school fees BUT (and I know this will be incredibly unpopular) to be quite frank, most middle class families can but the parents simply aren't willing to make the financial and lifestyle sacrifice to send their kids to private school and yet they are happy to try and hate on those that do.

Ultimately they might choose to spend their money on a more expensive car, a bigger house, a nicer holiday etc. I used to live in a new build housing development where people in one bedroom flats had brand new Range Rover Sports parked up outside. It was ridiculous that people who could seemingly 'only' afford a 1 bed flat were buying or leasing cars that were almost a third of the value of their home. However we let them make their choice and move on.

Now you can argue about the ethics of private school education but I think those who automatically view parents who send their kids to private school as people who should endure some form of suffering or deserve whatever is coming to them need to look at the hypocrisy they show when compared to their own lifestyle choices but also understand that we're not all millionaires and have actually made a sacrifice for what we hope is the benefit of our children - have you done the same?

OP posts:
Morph22010 · 12/06/2024 22:05

Matronic6 · 12/06/2024 21:51

It's not complex. The definition of a charity is an organisation set up to help those in need.

No one needs private education. Private schools do not operate to help those in need. Therefore they are not a charity.

thst is not the definition of a charity you’ve just made that up. A charity has to exist for a charitable purpose as per list below

The 13 descriptions of purposes listed in the Charities Act are:

  • (a) the prevention or relief of poverty
  • (b)the advancement of education
  • (c) the advancement of religion
  • (d) the advancement of health or the saving of lives
  • (e) the advancement of citizenship or community development
  • (f) the advancement of the arts, culture, heritage or science
  • (g) the advancement of amateur sport
  • (h) the advancement of human rights, conflict resolution or reconciliation or the promotion of religious or racial harmony or equality and diversity
  • (i) the advancement of environmental protection or improvement
  • (j) the relief of those in need, by reason of youth, age, ill-health, disability, financial hardship or other disadvantage
  • (k) the advancement of animal welfare
  • (l) the promotion of the efficiency of the armed forces of the Crown, or of the efficiency of the police, fire and rescue services or ambulance services
  • (m) any other purposes currently recognised as charitable or which can be recognised as charitable by analogy to, or within the spirit of, purposes falling within (a) to (l) or any other purpose recognised as charitable under the law of England and Wales
Matronic6 · 12/06/2024 22:13

Aladdinzane · 12/06/2024 21:56

@Matronic6

I think they retain charitable status by being shown to conducting business for public benefit and not making a profit.

Although I believe the charities commission has said that they need to do a lot more, this hasn't been enforced.

As a teacher in a state school which 'benefits' from the 'charitable work' of a couple of private school, I very much agree with the charities commission.

This year their charity work has consisted of:
Inviting pupils in to watch them debate
Inviting some of our much smaller pupils in to sit at the very back to watch a play performance
Having some of their year 8 pupils 'teach' a language taster: a powerpoint of 'hello, my name is xxxxx' in every language represented in their school

It all had the feel of being the state school children being wheeled in to tick a box and I am still at a loss as to what the point of any of it was.

MyNameIsFine · 12/06/2024 22:18

ageratum1 · 12/06/2024 21:12

The way parents need to think of it is this , you have benefitted from a loop hole in the past ,just be grateful for that!

It wasn't a loophole. The people who wrote the law intended to exempt education from VAT. They didn't do it by accident.

Matronic6 · 12/06/2024 22:20

Morph22010 · 12/06/2024 22:05

thst is not the definition of a charity you’ve just made that up. A charity has to exist for a charitable purpose as per list below

The 13 descriptions of purposes listed in the Charities Act are:

  • (a) the prevention or relief of poverty
  • (b)the advancement of education
  • (c) the advancement of religion
  • (d) the advancement of health or the saving of lives
  • (e) the advancement of citizenship or community development
  • (f) the advancement of the arts, culture, heritage or science
  • (g) the advancement of amateur sport
  • (h) the advancement of human rights, conflict resolution or reconciliation or the promotion of religious or racial harmony or equality and diversity
  • (i) the advancement of environmental protection or improvement
  • (j) the relief of those in need, by reason of youth, age, ill-health, disability, financial hardship or other disadvantage
  • (k) the advancement of animal welfare
  • (l) the promotion of the efficiency of the armed forces of the Crown, or of the efficiency of the police, fire and rescue services or ambulance services
  • (m) any other purposes currently recognised as charitable or which can be recognised as charitable by analogy to, or within the spirit of, purposes falling within (a) to (l) or any other purpose recognised as charitable under the law of England and Wales

I actually didn't make it up, I did confirm with the Oxford dictionary. But I agree that this is a much more comprehensive list of what a charity entails.

Has reinforced my position that private schools are not a charity as they do not meet any of these descriptions.

MyNameIsFine · 12/06/2024 22:20

Morph22010 · 12/06/2024 22:05

thst is not the definition of a charity you’ve just made that up. A charity has to exist for a charitable purpose as per list below

The 13 descriptions of purposes listed in the Charities Act are:

  • (a) the prevention or relief of poverty
  • (b)the advancement of education
  • (c) the advancement of religion
  • (d) the advancement of health or the saving of lives
  • (e) the advancement of citizenship or community development
  • (f) the advancement of the arts, culture, heritage or science
  • (g) the advancement of amateur sport
  • (h) the advancement of human rights, conflict resolution or reconciliation or the promotion of religious or racial harmony or equality and diversity
  • (i) the advancement of environmental protection or improvement
  • (j) the relief of those in need, by reason of youth, age, ill-health, disability, financial hardship or other disadvantage
  • (k) the advancement of animal welfare
  • (l) the promotion of the efficiency of the armed forces of the Crown, or of the efficiency of the police, fire and rescue services or ambulance services
  • (m) any other purposes currently recognised as charitable or which can be recognised as charitable by analogy to, or within the spirit of, purposes falling within (a) to (l) or any other purpose recognised as charitable under the law of England and Wales

Exactly. We don't need the arts, do we? But they benefit us.

Aladdinzane · 13/06/2024 00:07

@MyNameIsFine

Who made that claim about the arts?

I think the issue with some private schools is that they may not do enough to exist for "the advancement for education" within the role of a charity. Which is why the charity commission said that many of them need to do much more to maintain their status.

notbelieved · 13/06/2024 07:29

Aladdinzane · 13/06/2024 00:07

@MyNameIsFine

Who made that claim about the arts?

I think the issue with some private schools is that they may not do enough to exist for "the advancement for education" within the role of a charity. Which is why the charity commission said that many of them need to do much more to maintain their status.

Then a better strategy might be to better define the types of activity that a private school should be undertaking to keep their charitable status with clear reporting lines and the removal of the status if not adhered to?

Aladdinzane · 13/06/2024 07:44

@notbelieved

I think we should actually do both VAT and this.

In reality there has been a whole level of protection for this sector for a long time which it hasn't been able to justify.

The stamping of feet from parents who then claim that their school will cut bursaries has been rather disappointing to see, and hilarious that most of them think that bursaries/scholarships are paid from fees.

Heatherbell1978 · 13/06/2024 08:11

@Aladdinzane my DS is starting private school this year and I paid a £300 admission fee. The Ts and Cs literally state that that is used for bursaries. Where do they come from then?

Aladdinzane · 13/06/2024 08:15

@Heatherbell1978

Many schools have endowments from former pupils which pay for bursaries/scholarships, some may cover them from fees, but in the main they don't, the fees cover the cost of providing the education for the child.

Dulra · 13/06/2024 08:18

Matronic6 · 12/06/2024 22:13

As a teacher in a state school which 'benefits' from the 'charitable work' of a couple of private school, I very much agree with the charities commission.

This year their charity work has consisted of:
Inviting pupils in to watch them debate
Inviting some of our much smaller pupils in to sit at the very back to watch a play performance
Having some of their year 8 pupils 'teach' a language taster: a powerpoint of 'hello, my name is xxxxx' in every language represented in their school

It all had the feel of being the state school children being wheeled in to tick a box and I am still at a loss as to what the point of any of it was.

It all had the feel of being the state school children being wheeled in to tick a box and I am still at a loss as to what the point of any of it was.

You were right the point was to tick a box and give themselves a good old pat on the back

Aladdinzane · 13/06/2024 08:22

"You were right the point was to tick a box and give themselves a good old pat on the back"

Indeed, as is giving the local primaries use of sports facilities, often the schools can't use them during school hours or after school, its early evening (7pm) when its offered so is not taken up, but as it was offered, it ticks the box and the back patting about their munificence will continue.

Dulra · 13/06/2024 08:26

notbelieved · 13/06/2024 07:29

Then a better strategy might be to better define the types of activity that a private school should be undertaking to keep their charitable status with clear reporting lines and the removal of the status if not adhered to?

Then a better strategy might be to better define the types of activity that a private school should be undertaking to keep their charitable status

Yes I agree. I am not in UK but I think it is similar as Ireland in that they have really started to tighten up on all charities over the past number of years. In Ireland we now have the charities regulator which oversees the work of charities and ensures their compliance with the charitable act. Is this just an extension of that in the UK? so private schools aren't necessarily being signaled out in this just required to be compliant to maintain their charitable status. They are all individual entities so I assume will be audited as such and some may prove not to be compliant and will lose their status. About half of fee paying schools in Ireland have retained their charitable status and are therefore VAT exempt, BUT in Ireland the state pays the teachers salaries in fee paying schools and their fees are considerably lower than the UK so less elitist.

LemonPeonies · 13/06/2024 08:31

Me and siblings went to normal school. My cousins all went to private schools, not one of them is doing as well as us in career/ life etc so I don't see the point. This "sacrificing" malarkey makes no sense, all parents make sacrifices in different ways. Me and DP have a good combined income but no way are we going to scrimp and save to send DS to private school. I don't like how those parents look down their noses at state schools either and you've got to have a big income to afford it so that statement is just ridiculous.

Spendonsend · 13/06/2024 08:35

They do write a report for The Charity Commission which includes a statement on their public benefit. It generally includes:

The number of pupils they educate (as education is a Charitable aim)
The number on bursaries
Then outreach stuff related to core aim
Then charity incidental to their core purpose

The quality varies from.school to school. Some are just tokenistic marketing, others are actually quite good.

It would be pretty easy for someone to do random spot checks as to whether they are doing enough.

Barbadossunset · 13/06/2024 08:39

LemonPeonies · Today 08:31
I don't like how those parents look down their noses at state schools either.

You obviously look down on private schools which is no different to private school parents looking down on state schools.

Allfur · 13/06/2024 08:41

LemonPeonies · 13/06/2024 08:31

Me and siblings went to normal school. My cousins all went to private schools, not one of them is doing as well as us in career/ life etc so I don't see the point. This "sacrificing" malarkey makes no sense, all parents make sacrifices in different ways. Me and DP have a good combined income but no way are we going to scrimp and save to send DS to private school. I don't like how those parents look down their noses at state schools either and you've got to have a big income to afford it so that statement is just ridiculous.

Agree, a very much wasted sacrifice alot of the time

Aladdinzane · 13/06/2024 08:41

@Barbadossunset

Isn't one a reaction to the sneering rather than actually sneering.

BTW most private school parents are lovely folk who are well aware of the privileges that their money is bringing. Most don't sneer at state schools the way that a good number have here.

Every group has its outliers.

Allfur · 13/06/2024 08:42

Barbadossunset · 13/06/2024 08:39

LemonPeonies · Today 08:31
I don't like how those parents look down their noses at state schools either.

You obviously look down on private schools which is no different to private school parents looking down on state schools.

It's not the state school parents starting all these threads

Allfur · 13/06/2024 08:43

Aladdinzane · 13/06/2024 08:41

@Barbadossunset

Isn't one a reaction to the sneering rather than actually sneering.

BTW most private school parents are lovely folk who are well aware of the privileges that their money is bringing. Most don't sneer at state schools the way that a good number have here.

Every group has its outliers.

I've seen plenty of sneering from private school parents on these threads

Aladdinzane · 13/06/2024 08:46

@Allfur

Yes, there has been some behaviour which isn't particularly endearing, but I'd take these to be the outliers. There can't be that many highly qualified, high earning people, who don't see this business transaction for what it is.

Heatherbell1978 · 13/06/2024 12:18

@LemonPeonies I'm really not sure where this 'private school parents sneer at state school parents' thing comes from. It just feeds into the 'us and them' narrative that has our politicians rubbing their hands together in glee.
For context I have two in state and one is moving to private this year as his needs can't be met in state. It's highly likely with the VAT added that DD will continue in state while we try and do our best for DS. I have lost friends since making this decision which has caught me completely off guard. A group of friends who clearly have quite strong views about private have cut me off. But I'm fair game apparently. Deserve all I have coming to me. The whole narrative on this is ridiculous.

Aladdinzane · 13/06/2024 12:21

@Heatherbell1978

I agree, its very them and us, but presented on both sides by some as so.

I think anyone should be free to choose either system, however, I have for a long time thought VAT exemptions should be removed, and that schools that hold charitable status should be made to do more to keep it.

MyNameIsFine · 13/06/2024 12:26

Aladdinzane · 13/06/2024 12:21

@Heatherbell1978

I agree, its very them and us, but presented on both sides by some as so.

I think anyone should be free to choose either system, however, I have for a long time thought VAT exemptions should be removed, and that schools that hold charitable status should be made to do more to keep it.

I think we all know what you think by now!

Aladdinzane · 13/06/2024 12:27

@MyNameIsFine

and I'm allowed to repeat it, just like everyone else.