Discussion over private schools brings out illogical viewpoints, sheer hypocrisy and the worse traits in people?

[ByPeachJoker]

First off, not that it should impact an objective debate, but we do send our son to a private primary school but would consider ourselves middle income earners.

As you can imagine, this is linked to the PMs debate just now, but having read a recent MN thread on a lady who wanted to know how she might be able to avoid paying VAT on school fees should Labour come into power, I was shocked at the vitriol thrown her way. As far as I could tell, the issue wasn't so much that she wanted to avoid the VAT but the majority of comments were coming from people who essentially felt like this lady was somehow getting her comeuppance, that she automatically deserved to suffer some form of penalty just by virtue of choosing to send her DC to a private school. She made a 'bad' choice and should suffer the consequences.

One comment was simply 'how about sending your kids to a state school like 93% of the population'. It completely disregards the fact that there is a child at the heart of this and that a fairly arbitrary tax change is a) going to lead to an additional cost for exactly the same thing and b) for many parents, this change will mean they cannot afford the fees and this may lead to a child's education and social environment being uprooted. I'm not here to necessarily discuss the actual fairness of VAT being imposed on private school fees but more that there is this automatic reaction by a majority of people whenever private schooling is discussed and that this reaction is rooted in nothing logical and is based on the worse of human emotions such that people ignore the fact that many parents are making a financial/lifestyle sacrifice for their children.

Much of it comes from this completely incorrect assumption that you must be wealthy to send your child to a school. I get the impression that many are misinformed and assume that most private schools are like Eton or Harrow and have fees in excess of £20k a year which really is not the case. I think the negativity comes down to the fact that it's people's children that are involved and so people naturally come to see parents who send their kids to private schools as paying for some form of advantage and this being inherently unfair. Now I accept that there are a lot of people who simply could not afford private school fees BUT (and I know this will be incredibly unpopular) to be quite frank, most middle class families can but the parents simply aren't willing to make the financial and lifestyle sacrifice to send their kids to private school and yet they are happy to try and hate on those that do.

Ultimately they might choose to spend their money on a more expensive car, a bigger house, a nicer holiday etc. I used to live in a new build housing development where people in one bedroom flats had brand new Range Rover Sports parked up outside. It was ridiculous that people who could seemingly 'only' afford a 1 bed flat were buying or leasing cars that were almost a third of the value of their home. However we let them make their choice and move on.

Now you can argue about the ethics of private school education but I think those who automatically view parents who send their kids to private school as people who should endure some form of suffering or deserve whatever is coming to them need to look at the hypocrisy they show when compared to their own lifestyle choices but also understand that we're not all millionaires and have actually made a sacrifice for what we hope is the benefit of our children - have you done the same?

Eton fees are £50k per year
My local day school (Yorkshire) is 18k per year at Secondary. So not far off 20k.

It takes a pretty high income to have £1.5k spare monthly after tax, housing, transport bills etc.

I don't particularly care that people chose to pay. Its the best option for some children. Its their money.

I have a bigger problem with people who can't admit they use their high income and/or assets to move into high performing catchment but claim they would never pay for schooling.

I am not sure what you want from this post.
There are many who have no sacrifices they can make in order to send their kids to private school. From Forbes: Workers aged between 40-49 have the highest median weekly pay (£770 for full-time gross pay)

That is equivalent to a salary of £40k a year and even if there are two adults I don’t know what household on £80k a year can afford private schooling regardless if they drive an old mondeo and never take a holiday!

You say as though “paying for some form of advantage and this being inherently unfair.”
Yet private education is am advantage and a privilege, from the curriculum to the class sizes to the amount of support received to the success of students going on to Oxbridge (which disproportionately has an intake from private schools given the percentage of pupils actually educated in one).
“In 2020–2021, just over 6% of children in England attended a private school (DfE (Department for Education) 2021), yet circa 30% of the intake to the elite Universities of Oxford and Cambridge [Oxbridge] were private school students”
The Sutton trust has more information on this here; https://www.suttontrust.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/AccesstoAdvantage-2018.pdf

Any expenditure over and above your essentials is a luxury. Private schooling is a luxury and a privilege, and though some may just be able to afford it there are many where the fees are well within their means (I include my own family in that remark who do send their children to private schools).

So why should it be VAT exempt when you’re criticizing the cars people are driving or the holidays people are taking which they have paid VAT on?!

I feel sorry for the parents who can’t afford the VAT on top and wonder if it would be more sensible to ramp up adding the VAT over a period of time so parents can potentially move their children onto state schools instead.

But ultimately paying tax on a choice and a luxury is only fair.

I was previously quite 'whatever' on the VAT on private schools thing, but the more threads about this topic come up, the more I hope it actually fucking happens.

Spare me the endless whinging of the fucking middle classes.

but also understand that we're not all millionaires and have actually made a sacrifice for what we hope is the benefit of our children - have you done the same?

So your long and boring OP was just a stealth brag about how great a parent you are?

I don't think VAT on school fees will be a big earner for the government and I don't like it being used so that Labour can be seen to tax the rich.

The rest of your post is the middle class parent equivalent of "if only you ate less avocado on toast you too could afford to buy a house" nonsense.

You may not feel wealthy but having thousands of disposable income to spend on your children's schooling makes you considerably better off than most. I neither envy or begrudge you your good fortune/ rewards for hard work but I find the complaining about being hard done by and judging other parents quite irritating when many parents are making sacrifices just to feed and clothe their children.

Not at all - if you read my whole post it's fairly clear that I'm countering the incessant prejudice that people like yourself seem to have about anyone and everyone who pays for a private education and that no amount of logic or reasoning seems to change that. I've set out a position but you choose to ignore everything and focus in on one line.

I think people don't get what sacrifices are - having a UK holiday rather than going abroad, or driving an older car are not sacrifices.

A sacrifice is a mother who goes without food so that her kids can eat.

But what a telling line. Bigging up yourself while inviting others to match it.

I’ve no skin in the game, I’m childfree and don’t really care what other people do with theirs; but the people who insist that there are oodles of perfectly average earners paying school fees just by making sacrifices like having a slightly older car and going to Butlins rather than the Dominican Republic for their family holiday are a bit like the people who insist that saved their £80,000 mortgage deposit by not buying takeaway coffees and cooking all their meals from scratch.

I don’t disagree that the proposition to charge VAT on private school fees is completely ideologically motivated, nor disagree that many people who believe that private schools shouldn’t exist because they’re an example of and perpetuate inequality are inconsistent in their values; but the average London / South East England day school does cost an average of £20,000 a year according to the Independent Schools Council - and that’s before the cost of uniform, extracurriculars etc. It’s absolutely beyond the reach of average and even many higher earners.

👏👏👏👏

Private school parent here who works with actual disadvantaged families. I can 100% see why many people aren’t fans of private schools. The inequality is vastly unfair. A lot of private school parents are out of touch with reality and frankly prats and their children can also be prat’s.
So basically I think suck it up. Spend your money as you like if you feel it is benefiting your children (I did it and kids loved it), but put your big girl pants on and stop gurning about people not liking you for using private schools!

I'm sorry but the whole avocado point trivialises a completely valid point. I see plenty of people on the school run/dropping kids off at state schools in cars that would cost in excess of £800 a month to lease and that is not far off private primary school fees. Those same people will criticise parents who then choose to put that money towards private education.

Another crucial point is that private school fees at least through primary school are in many cases the same if not less than paying for full time nursery so when you're having to fork out a huge amount for childcare, it's not much to essentially decide that you will continue paying those fees in the form or private school instead of nursery.

I do accept the point around parents complaining on a forum like this - it isn't going to resonate but my thread was not complaining but simply trying to call out what I see as the unfair response to parents who make the choice we do.

It's not prejudice about people who pay for a private education, it's the suggestion that

1. if you didn't buy a nice car you'd be able to afford private education
2. people who buy private education are better parents ('can you say that you have made sacrifices for your kids' is just a line begging to to told to fuck off)

I don't blame people who can afford private education for their kids for getting them out of state education which is currently in a shit state due to 14 years of Tory neglect.

What I do mind is the constant banging on about how this fucking VAT policy that might adversely affect a minority of kids when the vast majority of kids have had to put up with endless cuts and shitty provision for years to basically radio silence and no shit-giving. More threads about that fucking policy in weeks than about state education in months.

And I certainly object to the idea that people should vote fucking Tory who will continue to screw over the vast majority of children so that a minority of children's parents can continue to buy their way out of the mess and continue to not give a shit about all the other kids.

Private school parent here. Whilst we have forgone some of the fancier things in life we are still wealthy to be able to afford it at all. Everyone who pays full fees and can still support themselves is wealthy. The end. Mine didnt go until 11/13 depending on the kid and we're still wealthy to have been able to do it at all. Most middle class families can absolutely not sacrifice their way into sending 2+ kids private at full rate. Your numbers are way off too. Eton costs way more than 20k.

You sound very sheltered to the realities at play here. Count your blessings to be able to give your son something you want for him instead of getting delusionally defensive.

Nothing to do with lifestyle choices but more likely to be about believing that all children should get the same advantages during their education

It always go the same way, people who don’t send their children private are jealous of those that do - which is what OP is saying with their ridiculous lifestyle claim

I could afford it but would always choose not to. Nothing to do with my house, car or holidays but because I don’t agree with private education

The thing with cars is you can give them back!! Not so easy to pull kids out of school as you are skint. Also many are company cars.

Oh come on.

All this bleating about 'sacrifice'.

If you can make 'sacrifices' to the extent that you can afford private school every year for many years, that's one hell of a lot of unnecessary expenditure on fripperies in the first place.

Comparisons with private health, big cars and holidays are entirely fallacious. Partly because most people don't spend the equivalent private school fees on those things every year for so many years. But mainly, because they don't entrench and perpetuate privilege and inequality in the same way across generations. The top echelons of many professions, the arts and sports are not filled with people who had their tonsils out in a BUPA hospital or whose dad drove a BMW. They are there because they went to private school.

Also, why not have a nice car and a nice holiday and send your kid to a state school as actually- now brace yourself for a shock- many of them are fantastic! And it's actually possible to avoid 'sacrifice' and your kid can do very well indeed, even get into Oxford!

Maybe these threads bring out the worst in people because they have to read the insufferable smuggery characterised by your last sentence OP.

OP, are you planning to answer @Led921900’s point, that the lifestyle choices you criticise in other people are subject to VAT or tax

Moving to an expensive home in a good catchment >>> pay stamp duty tax.

Buy a nice car >>> pay VAT

Go on holiday >>> pay VAT

Why should your own luxury lifestyle choice be VAT exempt?

A sacrifice can be relative - just because there are people who make tougher decisions or sacrifices doesn't mean my choices don't constitute a sacrifice.

As I said in my OP, I appreciate many cannot afford the fees and they will rightly feel the whole system is unjust but isn't a class issue or class divide even though everything on MN turns into one.

When we moved to this area with my husband's job. Not out of choice!. We bought a small house in the catchment of the local comp. At that time it didn't have a great reputation and a lot of parents opted to send the children out of area or private. By the time DC was old enough for High School it had improved considerably. The catchment is very mixed, private houses, housing association and private renters. There are some very expensive houses on the border of the catchment area. DC had friends who were middle class , working class. immigrants, some whose parents were unemployed.
By the time DC had sat their GCSEs it was outstanding. It still is outstanding (13 years later) and has recently set up its own Academy Trust. Several of the SLT have gone on to be Heads throughout the county.
Dedicated staff, supportive parents, governors and PTA help.
It is very much at the centre of our community.

I believe it lives up to the ideals of Comprehensive education.

I have a bigger problem with people who can't admit they use their high income and/or assets to move into high performing catchment but claim they would never pay for schooling.

Spot on. The hypocrisy is off the charts. Or will happily use their money or connections to get and fund an unpaid internship in London for their child when they’re older. I’ve seen so many poorer kids from up north effectively excluded from certain fields due to not being able to afford this.

Choosing to spend your money on one expensive item instead of another expensive item isn't 'sacrificing' the other expensive item.

Don't be daft.

These people act like there are hoards of people living in moldy freezing dangerous places surviving on super noodles just to go private. Absolute bollocks. I think people like OP just have an extremely sheltered view of what normal and wealthy is. What they see as extreme sacrifice is just living a normal life.

but isn't a class issue or class divide even though everything on MN turns into one.

What is it then if it’s not a class divide? Of course it is.

This talk of “we work hard to send our child private”, well so does a nurse or a care worker who is probably earning not that much more than minimum wage. They work hard, if not harder, than someone in the City pushing PowerPoint slides around (no issue with that, I do that type of job myself) but would never have the opportunity to provide that type of unfair jump start for their child. Do their children not deserve as good an education as yours?