Discussion over private schools brings out illogical viewpoints, sheer hypocrisy and the worse traits in people?

[ByPeachJoker]

First off, not that it should impact an objective debate, but we do send our son to a private primary school but would consider ourselves middle income earners.

As you can imagine, this is linked to the PMs debate just now, but having read a recent MN thread on a lady who wanted to know how she might be able to avoid paying VAT on school fees should Labour come into power, I was shocked at the vitriol thrown her way. As far as I could tell, the issue wasn't so much that she wanted to avoid the VAT but the majority of comments were coming from people who essentially felt like this lady was somehow getting her comeuppance, that she automatically deserved to suffer some form of penalty just by virtue of choosing to send her DC to a private school. She made a 'bad' choice and should suffer the consequences.

One comment was simply 'how about sending your kids to a state school like 93% of the population'. It completely disregards the fact that there is a child at the heart of this and that a fairly arbitrary tax change is a) going to lead to an additional cost for exactly the same thing and b) for many parents, this change will mean they cannot afford the fees and this may lead to a child's education and social environment being uprooted. I'm not here to necessarily discuss the actual fairness of VAT being imposed on private school fees but more that there is this automatic reaction by a majority of people whenever private schooling is discussed and that this reaction is rooted in nothing logical and is based on the worse of human emotions such that people ignore the fact that many parents are making a financial/lifestyle sacrifice for their children.

Much of it comes from this completely incorrect assumption that you must be wealthy to send your child to a school. I get the impression that many are misinformed and assume that most private schools are like Eton or Harrow and have fees in excess of £20k a year which really is not the case. I think the negativity comes down to the fact that it's people's children that are involved and so people naturally come to see parents who send their kids to private schools as paying for some form of advantage and this being inherently unfair. Now I accept that there are a lot of people who simply could not afford private school fees BUT (and I know this will be incredibly unpopular) to be quite frank, most middle class families can but the parents simply aren't willing to make the financial and lifestyle sacrifice to send their kids to private school and yet they are happy to try and hate on those that do.

Ultimately they might choose to spend their money on a more expensive car, a bigger house, a nicer holiday etc. I used to live in a new build housing development where people in one bedroom flats had brand new Range Rover Sports parked up outside. It was ridiculous that people who could seemingly 'only' afford a 1 bed flat were buying or leasing cars that were almost a third of the value of their home. However we let them make their choice and move on.

Now you can argue about the ethics of private school education but I think those who automatically view parents who send their kids to private school as people who should endure some form of suffering or deserve whatever is coming to them need to look at the hypocrisy they show when compared to their own lifestyle choices but also understand that we're not all millionaires and have actually made a sacrifice for what we hope is the benefit of our children - have you done the same?

I absolutely object to use of the term ‘sacrifice’ that is always used for private school fees. It’s a choice not a sacrifice - do people know what that word actually means?

Another crucial point is that private school fees at least through primary school are in many cases the same if not less than paying for full time nursery so when you're having to fork out a huge amount for childcare, it's not much to essentially decide that you will continue paying those fees in the form or private school instead of nursery

The difference is that childcare fees are unavoidable in that the government does not provide free childcare. Education IS free for anyone who wishes to utilise it. You have decided that you’re going to spend silly amounts of money on something you could have for free because you think you’re better than people who can’t afford to pay. You think you can buy your child a better life. I know many people who have been privately educated. I work alongside some. Their lives are no better than mine. The ones who benefitted from bursaries due to parental income had a pretty miserable time at their private schools because they couldn’t compete socially.
Pitting children against each other in a ‘I'm better than you because my parents have paid for my education’ is at best crass and at worst plain old social engineering.

People don’t realise that BAME parents often send to private on low salaries instead of buying or even renting an entire house. As state schools in many areas are dangerous to anyone who passes for black. I know parents on 40k household income paying 20k a year. For them a vat increase would be impossible

I totally get that parents might choose to go private because they believe it's best for their child. Even those that recognise how they reinforce inequality, drain the state system of resources, reduce the talent pool for the top professions and add very little in terms of educational outcomes.

We know from research that a state educated kid with BBB at A level will outperform a privately educated kid with AAB at University. But the state system is so under resourced, so poorly managed Nationally that too many kids fall through the system.

It's crazy that despite knowing that private education reinforces privilege & inequality, that it damages the economy by reducing the diversity of talent employers can draw from and that we have models that work so much more effectively that we carry on with this nonsense.

Everyone benefits from education, every year spent in it increases earnings and improves cognitive skills. Every pound spent on it adds 3 to the economy. It's the single biggest driver of social mobility, of a healthy economy & it's a disgrace that we don't provide the best for all our Nation's kids.

I can't see how anyone can justify a system where somewhere like Eton, sitting on reserves of £562 million, can flog 500 acres of land it owns simply to boost its profits while comprehensives have to sell off playing fields just to keep running.

Then you're very lucky that your children coped well in the state system and had their needs met. Both of mine are now in private because that wasn't the case. I'm in debt, my parents are helping with a lot of it (out of their modest private pensions, they are not wealthy) but we will do it because my kids need it. The alternative was one being continually subjected to violent bullying and the other at home with EBSA.
I don't think the OP has made her case we'll at all, but I do agree that there is spiteful vitriol aimed at parents and children..sneery comments about "poor Tarquin having to slum it" when for many of us that is literally the last thing we care about. Id love not to be in the financial situation I am in, I'd love it if mine thrived, we're NT and happy and confident in an average state comp, but they're not.

VAT won't do anything to help the state system ..the figures dont work, so basing this on financial arguments is false

This will increase the elitism of private schools so basing it on ideology doesn't work either. It's "race to the bottom" and is simply a way to win votes and distract attention from the many many billions that need investing in the state system (I'm a teacher). Post COVID, the Gov were advised that 15b was needed for catch up just on educational steps, not building infrastructure or any other aspect. 1.5 is a paltry sum in the scheme of things that will go nowhere and cause more issues than it solves.

Bringing it in straightaway in one hit is demonstrably unfair. If it must come, do it at new point of entry, R, Y7 and 12 so parents can help their children transition at natural stages of that is required.

I do agree with you but it's like Brexit, you can throw as many facts as you like at people, they have their beliefs and you won't change them.
Since deciding to move my DS to private as his needs aren't being met in state, I've been subject to a lot of inverse snobbery from people who could afford private but choose other lifestyle choices that I can no longer afford. But I'm fair game apparently. We live in such a divided society, it's really sad to be honest.

This exactly. Why on earth would you chance it? I’m staggered how many parents at my child’s school seem to have just guessed that it would be ok!

There is a huge difference between private and public schools. Most private schools in the country have fees less than 20k and cater to sen kids or those who are unable to manage state school.

@Hatfullofwillow until people stop equating the private system with Eton, this is a pointless debate. The vast majority of private schools are literally nothing like it and have more in common with their nearest state school than with the likes of Eton, Harrow etc. Take the top dozen or so out and look at an average one, especially out of the south east, look at their accounts and you'd be amazed at how tight the margins are.

Yes I really can’t understand. There are plenty of things I can’t afford for my children that others can. This is a normal fact of life. The anger and judgement should be directed at the state that needs to improve education standards and facilities, not at the parents who can afford private school. The parents of private school kids are not responsible for the standards and quality of state schools. So, yes, I absolutely cannot understand the anger and judgment for parents who weather through more wealth, different choices, sacrifices, resources etc. opt for private schools. I can completely understand anger and judgment towards the politicians and policy-makers responsible for state-provided education. HTH.

I think we need to stop going on as if every private school is Eton.

The private school I went to was an old house, didn’t even have a kitchen, hired out facilities from the uni. And its fees are similar to what I now pay for nursery for my own kids.

Plus, I don’t think I or my parents gave a shit about any of the points you mention (inequality etc) when the boys at my state primary were whacking me with their scooters and the school did nothing.

I see plenty of people on the school run/dropping kids off at state schools in cars that would cost in excess of £800 a month to lease and that is not far off private primary school fees.

But if they have more than one child, £800 is going to become £1600, £2400 etc. Are they supposed to choose one child to go to private school? Unless one child had a very clear need such as a disability, I don't think you could do this without risking major damage to your relationship with the child(ren) who were not chosen for this privilege.

But the state system could, and should, offer a range of educational settings. There's no justification for restricting education based on ability to pay.

Absolutely they could and should. They need to create a better process for dealing with disruptive and violent kids. But they don’t. That’s where the problem is.

Having been a school governor for years with my eyes on the budget for a state school that manages with a far smaller budget per pupil, I would indeed be amazed to find that margins are tight in any private school. I rather suspect that your version of a tight budget and mine are somewhat different.

Also - I think the focus of politicians on VAT is a distracting tactic. The issue should not be whether private schools should pay more VAT, it should be why there is so little investment and prioritization on improving state schools (i.e. why the leaders have not done their job properly).

Think about your debate in reverse. You’ve kind of highlighted how much you’ve sacrificed for your child and other families choose other ways to spend their income.

I’ve come across people that send their kids to private school judging state school education. You will always get naysayers.

Private school is ideal for some children; in the same way single sec schools are ideal for some and not all.

Most decent parents are doing their best for their children. Just because you’ve sent your child to a state school, it doesn’t mean you have made zero sacrifices. Some parents move areas to be in the best school - my DDs primary attracted lots of families that moved to be in the catchment. Some parents can’t afford private school, choose public but pay extra in tutors and classes or invest in extracurricular activities to keep their children well rounded.

YANBU as so many of those proudly against private schools buy their way into the catchments of the best schools. I genuinely don’t see how they can’t see the hypocrisy.

Indeed.

https://ifs.org.uk/articles/growing-gap-between-state-school-and-private-school-spending

Mumsnet is full of middle class whingers droning on child, about the sacrifices they make and the value they put on their child's education. I've yet to read one post where anyone admits to being a snob or that they're happy to buy privilege. All those schools where they couldn't possibly send their child, newsflash the vast majority of the kids in their area will be going there and its not because their parents havent made sacrifices or don't care about their education .

So people on the other side of the debate are illogical and hypocritical?
Tbh, watching from the sidelines, my impression was that I’ve been surprised how illogical and out of touch private school parents are! I don’t begrudge them, but I was stunned to see most consider themselves average earners and not at all rich. They seem to have a poor grip on reality where they mostly believe we could all go private if we made sacrifices (sacrifices to the tune of my total pay…).
I was not in favour of VAT until the mumsnet posts, but I’ve read so many like this it’s annoyed me to having a real lack of sympathy. It’s hard to be sympathetic when there’s so little grip on reality or awareness shown around the privilege involved and lack of equality. I’m not pro, but I’ve reached the point where I care less and it wouldn’t affect my vote at all. I’d be able to support arguments about the value of education, tradition, preserving it for the next generation etc… but I’m done with wealthy people claiming to be not wealthy and whinging about the fact others are too stupid to understand their needs.
Theres a small minority with SEN affected. I think the solution would be to say those in receipt of DLA are exempt or in schools costing under 10k with identified needs/ on the SEN register. It’s a small fraction of the kids and it could be resolved easily.

We had to move our SEN child from his "outstanding" state school to a smaller private school after his anxiety became so bad he was self harming and talking about suicide. After an urgent referral to CAMHS he has now (18 months later) been diagnosed with ASD and ADHD.

It wasn't to buy my child an advantage, or to get him to Oxford/Cambridge. He is unlikely to even do A-levels.

He's now in a school where he's not being constantly put in isolation and being bullied every day by classmates whilst teachers tell me the problem is his "weird and immature" behaviour and it's unfortunate that they can't do anything to help.

A lot of SEN children cant cope in mainstream school.

A third of my son's year in his private school have SEN and this means teachers are more aware of ND and other children are more inclusive as they are used to children who need read/write software or are allowed movement breaks etc.

I sent 3 of my 4 to private school so am sympathetic.

But this is not an arbitrary or unexpected tax because it has been mooted and discussed for years.

If you send your dc to private school and are forced to change schools because you can't find the extra 20% then you made a foolish initial decision and really must accept the blame if your child is forced to move.

Parents paying fees save the state the cost of educating their child. They should get a tax break for that, not a hike.
Labour politicians who send their kids to state schools don’t ever go to the sink schools. Those who live in areas with poorly performing schools play the religious card, or send them to grammar schools like Jeremy Corbyn’s kids, or are just out and out hypocrites like Diane Abbot, sending her to t a private school.

But it doesn’t, state can be horrific for children that are even slightly outside the ‘norm’ and it’s got worse in recent times as schools need to have evidence of achievement for ofsted, why would they want to spend £x on supporting one Sen child when the same £x could be used across a larger amount of children with lower support needs to increase their grades and the schools standing in league tables, it is far easier to manage the Sen children out. When the state system offers a range of educational settings that can meet the needs of all children that would be the time to bring in the vat charge but it’s day one.