Discussion over private schools brings out illogical viewpoints, sheer hypocrisy and the worse traits in people?

[ByPeachJoker]

First off, not that it should impact an objective debate, but we do send our son to a private primary school but would consider ourselves middle income earners.

As you can imagine, this is linked to the PMs debate just now, but having read a recent MN thread on a lady who wanted to know how she might be able to avoid paying VAT on school fees should Labour come into power, I was shocked at the vitriol thrown her way. As far as I could tell, the issue wasn't so much that she wanted to avoid the VAT but the majority of comments were coming from people who essentially felt like this lady was somehow getting her comeuppance, that she automatically deserved to suffer some form of penalty just by virtue of choosing to send her DC to a private school. She made a 'bad' choice and should suffer the consequences.

One comment was simply 'how about sending your kids to a state school like 93% of the population'. It completely disregards the fact that there is a child at the heart of this and that a fairly arbitrary tax change is a) going to lead to an additional cost for exactly the same thing and b) for many parents, this change will mean they cannot afford the fees and this may lead to a child's education and social environment being uprooted. I'm not here to necessarily discuss the actual fairness of VAT being imposed on private school fees but more that there is this automatic reaction by a majority of people whenever private schooling is discussed and that this reaction is rooted in nothing logical and is based on the worse of human emotions such that people ignore the fact that many parents are making a financial/lifestyle sacrifice for their children.

Much of it comes from this completely incorrect assumption that you must be wealthy to send your child to a school. I get the impression that many are misinformed and assume that most private schools are like Eton or Harrow and have fees in excess of £20k a year which really is not the case. I think the negativity comes down to the fact that it's people's children that are involved and so people naturally come to see parents who send their kids to private schools as paying for some form of advantage and this being inherently unfair. Now I accept that there are a lot of people who simply could not afford private school fees BUT (and I know this will be incredibly unpopular) to be quite frank, most middle class families can but the parents simply aren't willing to make the financial and lifestyle sacrifice to send their kids to private school and yet they are happy to try and hate on those that do.

Ultimately they might choose to spend their money on a more expensive car, a bigger house, a nicer holiday etc. I used to live in a new build housing development where people in one bedroom flats had brand new Range Rover Sports parked up outside. It was ridiculous that people who could seemingly 'only' afford a 1 bed flat were buying or leasing cars that were almost a third of the value of their home. However we let them make their choice and move on.

Now you can argue about the ethics of private school education but I think those who automatically view parents who send their kids to private school as people who should endure some form of suffering or deserve whatever is coming to them need to look at the hypocrisy they show when compared to their own lifestyle choices but also understand that we're not all millionaires and have actually made a sacrifice for what we hope is the benefit of our children - have you done the same?

And this is why I don't agree with private schools. I just think all children deserve access to high quality state funded education. Other countries manage it.

I’ve also no skin in the game but it is an ugly debate. No one person deserves a better education over another but my perception is that it is another attack on the squeezed middle by the left. As usual those at the top will avoid any impact and this could potentially make things worse for poorer kids if more people move to areas of “good school” raising house prices in desirable areas and ultimately making good education a provision for the well off anyway.

I think I've reached the point where I need to head to bed but just to clarify as I don't think you've read the whole thread - I did not raise the VAT issue and this thread was absolutely not about the VAT issue. It was inevitably raised by others to argue whatever point they decided they wanted to make but I feel like this thread has reached an end point finally.

You have very limited resources to reach that conclusion but that fact that I will be voting for a Labour government is enough to show that I'm not voting for my sole interests. Obviously you don't have to believe that in which case I bid you goodnight.

Which, translated, means:

"I'm annoyed because so many people have seen through me and the real premise of this thread"

@coupdetonnerre

In Denmark you go to free state school or a private school. Private schools aren't free.

Ok night Nadine

Absolutely agree with all of these points

Do you have any contribution to the arguments presented or do you just wade in at the end of threads in a failed attempt to rile people up where you disagree with them? 🙂

But it isn't, as only 7% go private the so called squised middle like us can't afford private schools and haven't been able to for some time. Unless you live somewhere where schools give substantial bursaries. Also maybe the fees where we are, are to high as well.

@Led921900 That is equivalent to a salary of £40k a year and even if there are two adults I don’t know what household on £80k a year can afford private schooling regardless if they drive an old mondeo and never take a holiday!
Take home pay on a £40k income (assuming that there's a student loan to pay back too) would be around £31k. So £62k for a couple.

If you take out a £250k mortgage over 25 years, with an interest rate of 5% then you'll be paying £18k/year. Yes, you might struggle to find a house below £300k in the South East, but not everyone lives in one corner of England. £44k left to spend.

On average a person spends £1793 on groceries and £530 on eating out. So for a family of three we'll say £7k/year on food. £37k left to spend.

Maybe £10k/year on holidays. £27k left to spend.

I consider cars to be an optional luxury, though I realise that I'm in a minority. So let's assume that they're a two-car family (though one-car families are more common). £7k/year. £20k left.

Council tax £2k. £18k left.

I know that life has other costs, but I think that I've covered all of the big ones.

Looking at a local school that covers nursery through to sixth form, fees range from £10,800 for early years, through to £17,400 at the upper end. That would be tight, but going down to one car and going camping in France would be enough to make it manageable if you only have one child. In many cases the cost is subsidised by grandparents who have paid off their mortgages.

I thought you were going to bed

Average family size has 2 children so doubt the private fees for both to attend since you’re using averages. And in fact if you’re using averages you need to go way down, from ONS. “In the financial year ending (FYE) 2022, median household income in the UK before taxes and benefits was £35,000, increasing to £38,100 after taxes and benefits”.

Now do your sums!

Tbh the figures are by the by, given the percentage of the uk population in private education it certainly seems to be limited to a minority of wealthy families. Whether they consider themselves wealthy is a different matter.

@DdraigGoch
So you conveniently forget, to pay your electricity and gass bill, your pension contributions, your house and content insurance you probably have students loans paying back at 9% each if your earing that much as well.

The only people who I know who have done it have either been left inheritance money, actually ring-fence for private education. Or earn significantly more then that.

It is not just that though, where you live is significant to affordability. Our local private school is 3x the one nearest my Mum in the south midlands. It’s the same with housing and cars. On our combined income we could afford private school in that area, a flashy car and a big house but we don’t live there so no choice. It is irrelevant anyway as there are good to very good state provisions.

I can't believe you made this thread, OP. What response were you expecting? Some observations:

We've heard from so many parents whose kids are in private education "but we're not rich, oh no, we make sacrifices.

Private education is morally indefensible.

People who send their children to private school are, by any reasonable measure, very wealthy. Most people don't care that they are wealthy, rather they are disgusted by the hordes of parents pretending not to be.

If I have to pay VAT on my annual holiday, you should pay VAT on your non-essentials.

Finally, you called the proposal an arbitrary tax. All taxation is arbitrary, it's the nature of the beast, but by kicking off about VAT, you're suggesting that people with a lower income should subsidise your child's education. You might want to think about that.

My dd is at private school simply because she is unable to go to state. As is, she’s developed an eating disorder and wasting away. All to do with her medical condition. As such she is covered under the Equality Act. I am seeking help. Again needing to do that privately as the nhs isn’t listening to what she needs. This is the only way I can ensure one day she will be a productive member of society and not a shell.

I know it’s a luxury to be able to pay for these things and I hasten to add they are all from savings. I am far too ill to work and dh’s salary doesn’t cover everyday life as I am also a large financial burden with the treatment I need to be able to function. I also had to pay for surgery as I couldn’t be guaranteed the specialist surgeon I needed on the nhs and would have been given the alternative again, which already failed once. No way was I going to allow someone to make another large incision in my stomach without getting it right. For reference my incision is now 12 inches.

So yes, the VAT situation really pisses me off.

I’m sure PP have said it, but unless you have a scholarship then it’s wildly out of touch to say you’re not wealthy but can afford to send your kids to private school.

And I say that as someone who with a bit of scrimping could send her children to private school. I am wealthy in comparison to the national average. I’m not a millionaire, but definitely wealthy enough to recognise that it’s a privilege.

It’s a great point that all of the alternatives you mentioned sacrificing (holidays, cars etc) are all VATable.

I do think that all the arguments for adding VAT to school fees also apply to University fees. I can’t see how anyone can agree to one without agreeing to the other. Does anyone think Labour will do this? How will they justify not doing this? University is also a luxury that gives you an advantage over other people. It would also raise a significant amount more tax.

Private school is a valid choice for those who can afford it and actually saves state money. It makes sense that the rich don't access free services provided by government because they can afford to pay for them (twice- firstly in tax and secondly in cash)

Of cause the lower end earners of those who can afford private school are going to be impacted by is 20% hike . It may mean they can no longer afford to access it. This is a shame as it just means more cost to each local authority.

Education is not a luxury. Private education is. University is available on the same terms to anyone.

Oh dear. Maybe the kiddies do need private education.

Exactly, a poster a while ago claimed state school was fine because all her doctor/banker/phd friends sent their kids to one. I doubt they are living in a tower block with piss in the elevator are they?

Starmer himself has children in state schools…..in an area where house prices are astronomical 🙄.

Honestly if people are happy to pay for their own education/ healthcare etc whilst still contributing to everyone else’s education and healthcare through their taxes then it’s fine by me.