to disagree with gender ideology/pronouns

[changednameforthiss]

Genuinely don't understand why this is a controversial statement, but somehow we're so far removed from truth and reality, and saying there are no more than 2 genders is enough to get you fired from your job and cancelled forever.

I believe in man and woman as science dictates, and that's it. Why is that hateful? I am not hating PEOPLE for stating this, because I simultaneously believe in the idea that any adult should 100% have the ability and right to freely express themselves in ways that feel congruent with their inner. I also believe people can medically transition to appear as a woman/male if they deal with actual gender dysphoria i.e. genuinely loathe of the sex they were born it; and I believe people have the right to perceive themselves as a woman/man . However, that does not make you the opposite sex. This is a perception, i.e. it is subjective...

So if someone does not want to refer to someone as their preferred pronouns, it is rude at best, but it's certainly not criminal as many people try to make it now. Personally, I will call you by your preferred pronouns because I think it's just good manners, but I honestly don't think it's the truth and I don't think anyone is what their biology (thus hormones) would reject. But we are allowing this to happen and the topic of gender ideology is impacting and in some cases damaging our children who have to deal with adult topics they are wayyyyyy too young to comprehend, as well as women's safety by opening doors for biological men into women's spaces that should not be opened. This is a big problem!

Why is this so controversial? Can we not respect everyone and their right to self-expression and femininity/masculinity across sexes without changing our vocabulary to affirm people's self-perceptions as well as rejecting biology?

If you think I'm hateful, I beg of you please explain why because I'm not getting this and it's driving me insane.

The facts are that women face the threat of violence or sexual assault from men. Consciously or unconsciously women spend their lives risk assessing every situation.

I am not suggesting that transwomen are more likely to present a threat because they are trans. They present a threat because they are men.
And that is why men, however they identify, should not be in women's spaces.

I think the biggest grip I have is the myths that we've seen perpetuated repeatedly on this thread that if you are gender critical you

a) hate trans people
b) have no close friends or relatives who identify as trans
c) trans is exactly the same as being gay

I think the reality on MN is that a sizeable number of women here think exactly the opposite but are concerned about how we've slept walked to the position we are in now, which is harming trans people AND women AND homosexuals.

This is due to a failure to engage with ALL vested interest parties and to confront those points of conflict head on.

There NEEDS to be answers to concerns.

And there it is! A perfect illustration of my post at Today 11:27 that backs up what I said.

Well you’re confusing sex and gender. Feminists fought gender stereotypes men had forced on them because of their biological sex, not the existence of biological sex being real, which is just a fact, No one has to be defined by their sex and gender expectations shouldn’t be attached to it. But ignoring biological differences between men and women, is not helpful to anyone, the fact that women have been historically ignored in medical trials, highlights why this is a problem.

YANBU,it's a load of wank.

I should have said "sex" rather than "gender".

I'm talking about life in general - every day stuff. Work, socialising etc...

Competitive sports is another matter altogether. Male and Female quite rightfully do not compete past the age of 12 due to hormones. Testosterone builds muscle so as females don't generally produce much testosterone, it puts them at a physical disadvantage. Then there's the height difference, which is mostly inherited, but the difference between men and women is due to the XX chromosome supressing height therefore making women on average shorter than males.

Genetically, some women have higher testosterone than other women, which means they tend to become more muscular. I'm 5'11 and although slim I have a muscular build and always been like this, so I'd take a guess I have higher than average testosterone.

I was always mistaken for a boy when younger and actually hated being a girl due to sexist girl stereotypes and not having equal opportunities.

Well it matters for some of the reasons already discussed in this thread. Men commit the vast, vast majority of sex crimes, mixed sex changing rooms for example, have been proven to put women at a higher risk of assault (links already in the thread), so surely you understand why that matters?

Who cares?

I agree that we have fought for decades for equal rights, but 'sex' was always actually important. Not just for reproduction but for many things.

I think I do understand what you are trying to say though.

Your post of 11:27 has been deleted, I am afraid.

I am not sure why you keep on personally attacking me.

I'm talking about life in general - every day stuff. Work, socialising etc...

On that, surely everyone agrees. For the vast majority of things neither sex nor gender should matter at all.
(Higher testosterone in some women is a red herring btw. 'High' for a woman is still very low compared to men, and it's often found in women with PCOS and not associated with enhanced athleticism.)

Well, even in everyday stuff.

It's vital that we record men's salaries and women's salaries, because how can we campaign for change around, and legislate against, those pay disparities if we don't recognise that difference. I go out with male friends, but their 'lived experience' is totally different to mine so that will affect where I would go and how I would think about getting home at the end of the night. If a crime is committed against me, it matters that the sex of the offender is recorded, not the gender, because it will affect how I think about my children in spaces where that sex is.

We've also got this odd distinction (see Kier Starmer's latest) about 'competitive sports'. Often this means elite, vs low-tier - where is the dividing line, exactly? If my DD plays hockey at school, where is the point that boys shouldn't play with her team? If she plays rugby with work colleagues, is it ok for her to want to only play with biological women because of safety and changing spaces?

I know what you mean, @RatatouillePie, in that some things feel like they must be free of gender and sex conversations. But the older I get, the more I feel like that's just my wishful thinking.

I think you're mis-understanding my point.

Exactly what you said - male and female changing rooms etc... for those biologically male and female.

"every day" life stuff gender/sex/race/age should be irrelevant.

Oh I agree, sorry, changing rooms to me ARE an everyday thing, so I misunderstood your point.

What gets me is the inability to reflect on why single sex spaces existed in the first place.

Do we have evidence to say that our society has changed so much that women and girls are no longer at risk from sexual violence?

Why are charities operating in the third world saying they are still essential in these places but not in the UK despite the issues with rapes not being reported? It's a very colonial type idea that's not even born out in really to say that these issues no longer exist in this country but they do in others. It's like saying males in other countries are less civilised!

We know that sex offenders deliberately target and use weaknesses in safeguarding for a reason. Why does this suddenly not apply when you consider transwomen. It's too easy to pretend to be trans as a cover story even if you do accept that NO ONE trans has ever committed a sexual offence (which we sadly know isn't true either).

It's just the erasure of everything we knew to be a problem and true just because there's this new idea but without examining whether the issues that led to single sex spaces are still very much relevant and needed. Which they are.

So has yours. So maybe now you can stop attacking me.

@RatatouillePie

Within the sex groups of men and women there is of course huge variety of height, muscularity and testosterone levels.

However even women with a high level of testosterone, such as those with PCOS do not reach the 'normal' levels of men. Normal measurements for these tests: Male: 10 to 35 (nmol/L) Female: 0.5 to 2.4 nmol Most testosterone values in PCOS will be (≤5.2 nmol/L).

I am more muscular than most women, and have rejected the performance of 'femininity' almost entirely.

Some people would say I present as a man. I would say I'm comfortable in trousers and hate make up.

I recognise that some men would be comfortable in skirts and wearing makeup - and they are welcome to do so by me. Unfortunately many other men do not welcome this and are a threat to them - I do not think this means I have to accommodate them instead.

Despite my 'presentation' I am fully aware of the limitations of my sex, particularly the physical limitations, - brought home to me very strongly in the practice of martial arts where skill and experience can be of limited use against the physical reality of increased upper body strength due to muscle mass distribution dictated by sexual development.

Why is it offensive to describe people as the sex we can plainly see?

Well I agree with you but if I'm trying to be generous to other pov I guess it's a bit like calling someone overweight fat who doesn't want to be fat. It may be objectively true, but it can be upsetting to hear. I'm not sure describing someone as fat an not intending it as an insult is actually fatphobic however just as I think correctly sexing people isnt transphobic.

There is a lot of drama and overreacting with trans issues, anything seen as a slight (even if not intended as such) is hate and causing suicides.

Great point!

@BaileySharp

If someone is obese, then some decisions, such as being able to go on a ride at the funfair, or whether they are eligible for surgery will be based on the actual measurement of their obesity - not their feelings.

However much this may upset them, the reality trumps feelings.

A biological male cannot be a woman anymore than I can be a cat.

He can call himself whatever he wants, dress how he wishes. He should be allowed to live his life free from hate. But he cannot demand that others pander to his delusions and nor should his choices be allowed to impact on women in wider society.

Listen to Simon Fanshawe on that particular subject. He would beg to differ. Very strongly.

He now not only views Stonewall as homophobic, but a menace to free speech and democratic debate.

Fanshawe was one of the original six founders of Stonewall, a charity which did an immeasurable amount of good for gay people. No wonder he feels so utterly betrayed.

This "Just asking to EXIST!" bullshit gets on my last nerve.

We all exist, every fucking human being on the planet exists.

The demand is not "to exist" but to have everybody else alter their beliefs, their language, their integrity, and deny material reality in favour of validating their identity.

While every human being has the right TO EXIST, no human has the right to demand mollification or validation.

Use the correct language.

What is the problem of third spaces for any human who wishes to use them?

That never gets answered directly, probably because the answer would be too revealing…

You are not wrong, in that it isn't the truth.
There are essentially now at least 4 genders. I guess I want trans people to acknowledge their trans-ness. Like to accept the fact they are different from their trans gender. Or cis as they call it now.. So it's cool to address people by their pronouns and know them as the gender they say...but deep down inside both they and others around them know it's different. There's nothing wrong with being different but to sell transgenderism as a way to be ingratiated to the opposite gender and fully become them is a fallacy.

I will say, the most terrifying and worrying thing lately on this topic is that of transwomen breastfeeding their babies.

I had a conversation with a woman recently who said it was "fantastic that at least one of the parents was able to feed their child". Yet this secretion of milk by biological men is possible due to a cocktail of drugs, one of which have been linked with detrimental effects on babies. Are babies - the most vulnerable of all - our test rabbits now, all in the name of affirming someone's false gender? There's NO valid research suggesting this secretion is sufficient, nor does the research even involve the macronutrients of this "milk", yet the NHS has backed this up!!

When it involves kids, there's no nuance for me. This is child abuse and that's a hill I'm willing to die on.