to disagree with gender ideology/pronouns

[changednameforthiss]

Genuinely don't understand why this is a controversial statement, but somehow we're so far removed from truth and reality, and saying there are no more than 2 genders is enough to get you fired from your job and cancelled forever.

I believe in man and woman as science dictates, and that's it. Why is that hateful? I am not hating PEOPLE for stating this, because I simultaneously believe in the idea that any adult should 100% have the ability and right to freely express themselves in ways that feel congruent with their inner. I also believe people can medically transition to appear as a woman/male if they deal with actual gender dysphoria i.e. genuinely loathe of the sex they were born it; and I believe people have the right to perceive themselves as a woman/man . However, that does not make you the opposite sex. This is a perception, i.e. it is subjective...

So if someone does not want to refer to someone as their preferred pronouns, it is rude at best, but it's certainly not criminal as many people try to make it now. Personally, I will call you by your preferred pronouns because I think it's just good manners, but I honestly don't think it's the truth and I don't think anyone is what their biology (thus hormones) would reject. But we are allowing this to happen and the topic of gender ideology is impacting and in some cases damaging our children who have to deal with adult topics they are wayyyyyy too young to comprehend, as well as women's safety by opening doors for biological men into women's spaces that should not be opened. This is a big problem!

Why is this so controversial? Can we not respect everyone and their right to self-expression and femininity/masculinity across sexes without changing our vocabulary to affirm people's self-perceptions as well as rejecting biology?

If you think I'm hateful, I beg of you please explain why because I'm not getting this and it's driving me insane.

If you reply you have a sister when the reality of your child hood was you had a brother, it affects your ability to relate. You didn't have those arguments sisters had as children. You didn't have the same comparisons made. You had a totally different experience.

@RedToothBrush this is painfully true. I apparently didn't have three daughters, I had 2 daughters and a son, which is an entirely different experience which didn't exist. It may not hurt physically but it really, really hurts as a mother that I can't talk about our past any more. Its like our good memories didn't really happen.

It's just that everything I see on this is anecdotal and I only seem to see it on mumsnet. I haven't found any reliable studies or figures that says there have been X amount more attacks by transgender people, or how many attacks there actually are.

Considering how much it has blown up in recent years, you would think someone would have done some proper research. Maybe they have, that's why I'm asking.

If I google the topic, the vast majority of what I see points to transgender people being at much higher risk of violence in bathrooms than women are at risk from them. (Not men in general - obviously violence from men towards women as a whole outweighs all of it).

But when talking about the bathroom issue, I feel like there should be some research.

I am simply curious and do not want to get into arguments/ disputes, this is purely investigative.

If anyone has any solid facts and figures, please share them.

(Not links to other mumsnet threads or single news articles/ anecdotes please).

Is that because you believe that trans women are not males?

Just want some clarity on this.

Why is even m accidentally flashing a woman with a 'lady penis' less distressing than being flashed with a 'man penis'?

Especially since it's a criminal offence to flash.

How does the presence of a dress stop the lady penis from upsetting women? And women being fully comfortable that the intentions of the person concerned aren't criminal in nature?

I'm yet to see an adequate explanation for this in the context of 92% of transwomen retaining their penis.

@Crispsandcola please read the posts from @RedToothBrush if you're still on here. I think you'll feel less threatened.

I already posted this: www.fairplayforwomen.com/criminality These are actual prison numbers, so not a 'news article' or 'anecdotal'.

So no comment on the fact that a woman was raped on an NHS ward and was told it could not have happened because there was no male there?

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/hospital-dismissed-claim-of-rape-by-trans-attacker-bssxvbqch

Just out of curiosity how many harmed women and children would be enough for you?

You can claim that these incidents are anecdotal to advocate for the rights of males to have access to women in single sex spaces all you like, but they keep on happening.

Here's the relevant bit re Kelley (though the whole thing is salutary reading)

However, in a statement, chief executive Nancy Kelley likened not wanting to date trans people to not wanting to date people of colour, fat people, or disabled people.

She said: "Sexuality is personal and something which is unique to each of us. There is no 'right' way to be a lesbian, and only we can know who we're attracted to.

Nobody should ever be pressured into dating, or pressured into dating people they aren't attracted to. But if you find that when dating, you are writing off entire groups of people, like people of colour, fat people, disabled people or trans people, then it's worth considering how societal prejudices may have shaped your attractions.

Ffs. This was the head of Stonewall not fully accepting the absolute right of lesbians to write off an entire group of people namely males - not 'trans people'.
Almost like she didn't know or care what the word 'homosexual' means.

Indefensible.

I totally support your need to see proper stats and figures, rather than anecdotes, I think that's very sensible and we all need to do that more, as well as critically thinking about the stats and sources.

May I ask, though: how many women describing their own negative experiences of men/transwomen in women's spaces can you dismiss just as anecdote? Do you suspect they are all made up? And if not all, how many have to have happened for you to feel that any men at all shouldn't be in those spaces?

Thanks, @teacrumpetsandcake , and apologies if I've got the wrong end of the stick.

"I am unwilling to defend the right of my loved one to exist any further. My family member deserves the right to exist and be happy"

Nobody is saying that your family member should not exist. Quit the trans hyperbole playbook, it just makes you sound ridiculous.

Nobody is saying that your family member should be forced to wear gendered clothes and pursue gendered interests. You're attacking straw men because that's all you have.

Why do you think your family member deserves more right to be happy than biological women deserve single-sex spaces?

@lifeturnsonadime I said that I did not want to get into arguments yet you are already saying aggressive things to me like "Just out of curiosity how many harmed women and children would be enough for you?"

This is why I don't normally get involved in these discussions. There was nothing aggressive in my post, merely curiosity, yet I am being attacked.

I'm off.

I can't see how it is helpful for your own mental state to use such hyperbolic language.

Absolutely no-one is denying your loved one exists. Everyone supports your loved one expressing themselves and living as they please. If you think otherwise, then you have swallowed a whole load of demonising propaganda which is not serving you or anyone else.

All anyone is saying is that your loved one is not literally a woman, and that a social shift to saying anyone who says they are a woman can enter women's spaces has unacceptable consequences for women.

Many of us on here have loved ones who are women who have suffered male violence. Those loved ones have a right to exist in single sex spaces when they are vulnerable so that they are safe.

Well that's an overreaction to a very reasonable question!

Why don't you want to answer it?

She didn’t think the article should be published because it was one-sided, manipulative and both driven by and designed to stir up fear and hatred against trans women.

Nancy is herself a lesbian woman who wanted to have her say. Writing that letter was the opposite of “silencing lesbian women”, it was itself an act of a lesbian woman speaking up and having her say!

Anyways, like I said, the debate about this one statement (in written form!) is pretty tired.

Yes, this is what I think too, Good post.

👏👏👏

Again, actual prison data:

Neither an overreaction, nor a reasonable question.

Actually I do. Plenty of posters here also do, if you took the time to actually listen to any of them.

This argument is such horseshit.

I do know quite a few trans people, thanks.

I also know that the constant narrative fed to them by TRAs about their risk of murder, violence and suicide means that they view the whole world as out to get them. An accidental misgendering - VIOLENCE. Not being asked out by the person they want - MISERY AND BIGOTRY. Not getting the job they were after - HATRED AND TRANSPHOBIA.

TRAs don't care about the average trans person. They care about gaining power and getting access to wherever they want to go. If they stopped trying to terrify trans people, that would actually help all those vulnerable youngsters whose mental health problems go so closely hand in hand with their trans identities. But the most vocal, strongly-worded TRAs aren't really interested in that.

If I google the topic, the vast majority of what I see points to transgender people being at much higher risk of violence in bathrooms than women are at risk from them. (Not men in general - obviously violence from men towards women as a whole outweighs all of it)

Are you able to share any solid facts and figures you’ve seen that proves this?

And @teacrumpetsandcake you are upset at being asked how many women and children being harmed are enough for you to the point you have to leave this thread but not at the fact that a woman was raped by a man on an NHS ward but was told that could never have happened because there was no man there.

Interesting.

Yawn.

Read. The. Thread.

This has already been covered as to why false equivalence with gay people is both bollocks and also actively homophobic.

Why not?

If you are advocating for women to lose single sex spaces and there is evidence that women and children are harmed by the fact that they are now mixed sex you ought to be able to answer questions on the harms caused.

And a question about just how many women and children need to be harmed before it worries you is entirely reasonable.