to disagree with gender ideology/pronouns

[changednameforthiss]

Genuinely don't understand why this is a controversial statement, but somehow we're so far removed from truth and reality, and saying there are no more than 2 genders is enough to get you fired from your job and cancelled forever.

I believe in man and woman as science dictates, and that's it. Why is that hateful? I am not hating PEOPLE for stating this, because I simultaneously believe in the idea that any adult should 100% have the ability and right to freely express themselves in ways that feel congruent with their inner. I also believe people can medically transition to appear as a woman/male if they deal with actual gender dysphoria i.e. genuinely loathe of the sex they were born it; and I believe people have the right to perceive themselves as a woman/man . However, that does not make you the opposite sex. This is a perception, i.e. it is subjective...

So if someone does not want to refer to someone as their preferred pronouns, it is rude at best, but it's certainly not criminal as many people try to make it now. Personally, I will call you by your preferred pronouns because I think it's just good manners, but I honestly don't think it's the truth and I don't think anyone is what their biology (thus hormones) would reject. But we are allowing this to happen and the topic of gender ideology is impacting and in some cases damaging our children who have to deal with adult topics they are wayyyyyy too young to comprehend, as well as women's safety by opening doors for biological men into women's spaces that should not be opened. This is a big problem!

Why is this so controversial? Can we not respect everyone and their right to self-expression and femininity/masculinity across sexes without changing our vocabulary to affirm people's self-perceptions as well as rejecting biology?

If you think I'm hateful, I beg of you please explain why because I'm not getting this and it's driving me insane.

I'm really sorry you feel this way, please could you explain how you feel trans people are being forced into a miserable existence or are not being allowed to exist? Because I've seen and listened to your opinions clearly but not seen concrete examples or exact reasons behind said opinions

So women who talk about sexual abuse, are being manipulative and we need to hear from the male abusers side too? Is that just when related to trans, or for all male sexual abusers? Nancy may be a lesbian, despite seemingly not knowing what that means, but that doesn’t mean she has the right to stop other lesbians talking about abuse they have suffered. Why do you think that’s ok?

Have you never considered that the source of your relative’s misery may be the fact that he needs some help to come to terms with reality? He feels he’s in the wrong sex for his body, which if it’s how he feels is fine. But it is just his feeling. It is not material reality. Would learning to love and accept himself for who he is, including being gender non conforming, not be more helpful? Why does he need the validation of others or to enter into opposite sex spaces to not be miserable?

I would say go speak to a trans person , but I fear that might be a fairly insufferable experience for them. So instead I’ll suggest that you go read some literature/ memoirs etc written by trans people about their lives. Theres plenty of it if you are “genuinely curious and open to listening” as you claim to be.

Loving the whole 'there are no lesbians on MN and the only lesbian voices that matters is Nancy off of Stonewall cos she's important' angle.

So women who talk about sexual abuse, are being manipulative and we need to hear from the male abusers side too

very little of what you post has anything to do with reality. This statement being an example of the nonsense, straw man arguments that you construct.

Loving the whole 'none of you here have ever spoken to someone trans and bothered to try and understand their point of view' angle here.

That is a laudable stance, and one that many agree with, but you would gain more credibility if you could justify your earlier statement where you said "There are more than two biological sexes- there is verifiable scientific evidence for that fact."

Many have challenged you on that and you have failed to address it, retreating instead into emotion, rather than fact.

We'd love to know more about these other biological sexes. Or have you too muddled up the distinction between sex and gender?

Regarding stats on the numbers of women and children harmed by men who identify as women in single sex spaces, there are a number of reasons why there are none which are part of the ideology not least that crimes committed by men who identify as women may be recorded as women's crimes.

The other major issue is that anyone who tried to record such statistics would be branded as 'transphobic'.

So for now we are stuck with anecdotal but hopefully the tide is turning. The harms to children of puberty blockers and other 'gender affirming care' is becoming increasingly apparent as a result of the Cass Review and the WPath files, it won't be long now before a proper study on this is carried out.

And that's not to mention the fact that most women just don't want mixed sex spaces.

Again nothing to do with anything that has been said. 💁🏼‍♀️

"sanluca
*And I see @Crispsandcola is doing the toddler thing of sticking their fingers in their ears and going la-la-la

We get it, Crisps, you have no argument and cannot engage"

If you have to demean and bully other people in order to make your point, you might want to rethink…*

That is not demeaning and bullying, that is stating an opinion on their actions. What else would you call the behaviour of a person that does not read what other people are saying but continiously repeats the same words over and over again? Crisps could also decide just not to come back if they don't want to discuss or defend their statements instead of exhibiting childlike behaviour.

Ok, I’m sorry if that’s the case, but then maybe you can explain what was meant by this, if I misunderstood?

She didn’t think the article should be published because it was one-sided, manipulative

How was it manipulative? Should there always be two sides and we hear from the abusers too? Or was something else meant by this?

Off course it's bloody relevant! You were the one who said that Stonewall isn't homophobic.

I think there are plenty of lesbians on MN who beg to differ.

Given that Stonewall is SUPPOSED to be a grassroots organisation, this KINDA matters...

But as you were. It's absolutely nothing to do with anything that's been said. Honest Gov.

You clearly have absolutely zero insight into the lived experience of being trans, so yes this is a very fair assumption.
(the less generous assumption would be that you have spoken to lots of trans people , however you are just so bad and listening , so lacking in empathy and so obtuse that it’s made no difference ).

As the sole survivor of 3 siblings, my other two actually don't exist anymore so anyone talking about siblings is denying my grief and lived experience.

See, we can all be overly dramatic and hyperbolic about our own personal circumstances. Of course what I posted above is ridiculous.

My point being that there are two posters on this thread who have trans siblings but only one of them is expecting safeguarding and the safety, dignity and privacy of women and girls to be thrown out the window because of their own personal circumstances.

Your attempted characterisation of what I said had nothing to do with anything I said.

And No, stonewall are not homophobic.

So why come back and engage if you don't want to do it properly.

It's quite clearly you are only interested in lecturing not trying to deal with the points of conflict and come to a place of resolution.

We get It.

It's quite clearly you are only interested in lecturing not trying to deal with the points of conflict and come to a place of resolution

ohh the hypocrisy 😂😭

I think this is a reasonable question.

I think it is difficult to produce accurate data on offences because police forces don't routinely collect data about gender identity of victims or offenders. (And if researchers asked a police force to do this it would probably be considered an act of outrageous transphobia)

The official data we have on this comes from prisons, because they are the only ones who have gathered and published such information (via a FOI I believe).

So, if women stating that sometimes sex (ie. that being based on biological science) is important for some points of law is somehow 'denying' some people's existence, doesn't that also then show just how misogynistic and harmful it is towards female people.

And please stop repeating your posts. Is it a tactic that was used on your family members to make them comply to your brother's demands? Was it successful?

You clearly have absolutely zero insight into the lived experience of being trans,

Oh the irony! Men have absolutely zero insight into the lived experience of being female, yet you lack the empathy and critical thinking to understand this.

Talking to a male won't make any of us suddenly decide males belong in female spaces. And many of us were 'peaked' by knowing transwomen in real life!

Incoherent 💁🏼‍♀️

It’s really not.