To not vote Labour because of their abhorrent views on the female sex?

[Lion400]

Starmer cannot represent women, he can’t even define us. Questioning a trans person is a hate crime, but misogyny is not. Sorry Labour, you’ve lost my vote. Have they lost anyone else’s??

‘On trans ideology, the vast majority of voters, and certainly a majority of traditional Labour voters from working class backgrounds, tend to cast a sceptical eye on the tenets of an ideological movement that asserts that biological men must be accepted as women – and be offered similar rights and access to women’s spaces and sports as women – simply by asserting their new status’

Starmer said. “We’ll cut NHS waiting lists for LGBT+ people waiting for urgent physical and mental health care

I'm interpreting that differently to you then.
As I take it to mean that anyone who is waiting for LGBT care they'll cut those waiting lists, whether it be related mental health care, or more physical.
Not "ha, straight person, this LGBT person gets priority, get to the back of the queue!"
Which is a strange take on it imo.

They're already saying it'll take 2 terms to do anything about the economy or the NHS

They’re not. They’re saying it will take two terms to undo the damage the Tories have inflicted on us. To bring us back to where we were in 2010 - if that’s even possible because decades of investment have now been destroyed. So, you’re saying we should just keep voting for the country to go further down the pan to satisfy niche ideology from a party that holds women in utter contempt. No fucking way.

Halving violence against women and girls

Commitment to protecting women's sex based spaces

Ensuring there is more provision of affordable and free childcare especially in less well off communities that currently have very few places (I think its something like 12 places per 100 children in Teeside for example)

Strengthening protection for workers, especially those on flexible and zero hours contracts who are disproportionately women

Treating repeat offenders of domestic and sexual violence as serious criminals and ensuring they get the appropriate response from the police - so more of them are locked up and women are safer

Just off the top of my head. What are the Tories proposing?

As I take it to mean that anyone who is waiting for LGBT care they'll cut those waiting lists, whether it be related mental health care, or more physical.

What is LGBT care exactly?

In particular what health needs do LGB community have are unique to them?

Or is it just about prioritising gender reassignment surgeries?

I find it astonishing at a time that the NHS is on it's knees and it can take years for children with severe mental health problems to get in front of CAMHS this care is the priority.

In order to cut those lists funding and mental health workers/ surgeons etc need to come from somewhere.

Why is modifying bodies so that they look more like the gender that a person feels a priority in an NHS that is on it's knees?

There's a limited pot of money. If you pile more money into the body modifications which gender affirming care apparently requires, what gets less money?

There is no real commitment to actual women's spaces. A male withal a GRC in a woman's space still makes it mixed sex.

Labour are not in power so are doing no damage to womens rights.

There is nothing in Labour's policies or proposals to suggest they will damage womens rights.

Some posters are giving anecdotal evidence of why they don't trust Labour or their local MP as reasons they won't vote Labour.

I think other women are unnecessarily panicking about "the damage Labour have and will do" as a result. The evidence just isn't there. And I am wary of conspiracy theories.

Labour are not in power but they do have some power. They are abusing women's rights as evidenced by their treatment of Rosie Duffield and their party members who object to their antiwomen policies. They say they want it to be even easier to get a bit of paper which requires people to pretend they are thebl opposite sex. No conspiracy theories here. Just knowledge of the actions of the Labour Party.

The question is actually "AIBU to not vote Labour because of their abhorrent views on the female sex?"

My answer to that is yes, YABU because you will get another Conservative government, who are worse (more anti-woman). Others vote YANBU, their choice.

No party is proposing to "make it impossible for a man to get a bit of paper saying he's a woman". I'm confused therefore why you are making it a voting issue?

There is nothing in Labour's policies or proposals to suggest they will damage womens rights.

This is your opinion, we are on page 31 of well evidenced reasons why many women don't agree with this statement.

Any law which makes easier the process of men being seen as female at law harms women. the Labour Party has committed, amongst other anti women things listed in the article above, to making the process of a man becoming legally female easier. This is in spite of seeing the actual harms caused to women by their creation of this legal fiction back in 2004.

This is something that the Labour Party could commit to properly resolve. They haven't yet.

What is LGBT care exactly?
Aaand here we go with "define" instead of actually responding properly presumably so we go round in circles and start again.

In particular what health needs do LGB community have are unique to them?
You could have people struggling with their sexuality in an uber religious household, wanting mental health care about their feelings?
Or, I dunno, I'm not a health care professional?!

Or is it just about prioritising gender reassignment surgeries?

Oh this but is telling.
This is what it all boils down to, isn't it.
Heaven forbid people who are trans get help, I'm guessing you don't have as much a problem with struggling sexuality wise bit
Or maybe you do, who knows.
There's literally no point engaging.

bit not but

Except (again) they have said there will always be spaces for biological women only.

Because of the complete lack of trust in some quarters, you will never accept they mean what they say and will rely on conspiracy theories about why they are lying. So there is actually no value to engaging on it, because no answer will ever be good enough.

I mean it's just so illogical we're supposed to believe that the Labour Party is the great protector of women's rights and is committed to single sex spaces but at the same time ignore the fact that Keir Starmer has recently said -

-He will simplify the GRA
-He will reduce wait times for LGBT (trans) health care so peoples bodies align more with their gender feelings.

etc.

Are we seriously supposed to believe he will make these things easier for trans people then say well you're birth certificate says your female, you've had surgery so that you resemble a female but the place for you is men's single sex spaces.

We weren't born yesterday.

Except (again) they have said there will always be spaces forbiological women only.

At law there is no such thing as a 'biological woman'.

Single sex is a person of the biological sex plus a person who holds a GRC and has the status of legal sex.

I mean you have completely ignored my posts about concerns about my own autistic daughter who was gender questioning.

Would you want a teenage daughter on a path way which could render her infertile?

It's awful isn't it.
It's known that people who are neurodivergent often are gender questioning. It's known people with neurodivergence, or who are questioning their sexuality (ie gay or bisexual people) often have mental health challenges. It's known that it's pretty much impossible to get a neurodivergent diagnosis, or adequate support for more complex mental health issues at the moment because the system is overwhelmed.

In that context, how posters hear "shorter waiting times for LGBT people" make the leap to "queue jumpers cos of wokery" rather than "thank fuck a politician has seen and recognised the challenges and wants to fix them" is beyond me.

I can only assume they haven't had the misfortune of trying to engage with CAMHS recently.

I mean, my son is on an "urgent" referral to CAMHS but I've been told to expect it to take two years because he's not actively trying to kill himself. It's is horrendous out there at the moment.

It's awful isn't it.
It's known that people who are neurodivergent often are gender questioning. It's known people with neurodivergence and who are questioning their sexuality (ie gay or bisexual people) often have mental health challenges. It's known that it's pretty much impossible to get a neurodivergent diagnosis, or adequate support for more complex mental health issues at the moment because the system is overwhelmed

Yes it is when my daughter was signposted by CAMHS they wanted to refer her to a regional gender centre because she was more comfortable in boys clothes because of sensory issues. That would have got her off their waiting list.

As it is 2 years later she still hasn't received any healthcare for her anxiety and sensory needs.

Under Labour if I claim she is LGBT she would be prioritised! No matter that that might put her on a pathway of hormones etc. rather than give her the mental health / OT support she requires! God forbid therapist explore the reasons she doesn't conform with gender stereotypes which are sensory needs and the fact she has a communication disorder which means she communicates differently from other girls. That might be deemed to be conversion therapy!

How does prioritising LGBT health needs shorten waiting lists for your son which are indeed horrendous?

This particular issue gives me the rage.

But politics isn't about finding the perfect party, nor do you have to agree with all their policies. It's about finding a 'best fit' with your beliefs.

After 13 years of Tory chaos leaving the country completely fucked, I believe that Labour under Starmer will make for a fairer, more just society for everyone.

Kier said women can have penises. So again, no conspiracy theories here. Just evidence.

Starmer said. “We’ll cut NHS waiting lists for LGBT+ people waiting for urgent physical and mental health care

Like others on here i have children with mental health issues including self harming and suicidal thoughts

i would like to know what is meant by lgbt healthcare as well, i don’t think thats an unreasonable thing to want clarified

Clarification is good, it's the insinuation of some form of "queue jumping" I don't like. It's a bit to close to the rhetoric around asylum seekers and housing, I feel its divisive and seeks to blame a particular group for issues rather than the fact the health service is chronically underfunded, with a huge impact especially for CAMHS.

So there is actually no value to engaging on it, because no answer will ever be good enough.

This is simply untrue and misrepresents what many of us are saying we want from Labour for them to earn our vote over this issue.

For clarity if Labour were to revoke the GRA so that no man could be a legal woman and be clear that women's single sex spaces are for women only (excluding all males however they identify and regardless of what paperwork they hold which might contain the legal fiction that they are female)

AND if they would commit to a watchful wait approach for children with gender identify issues in line with the findings of the Cass review,

AND if there could be a formal acknowledgement/ apology to Rosie Duffield and all the women members who were told that our views were not worthy (it has now been demonstrated in court that GC views are protected beliefs).

Then I could vote for them.

In the event that revoking the GRA is a non starter the Equality Act could be worded in such a way that women's single sex spaces specifically exclude males with a legal sex of female. This would effectively render the GRA defunct as there is no point in changing a sex marker if it doesn't mean you are treated as the opposite sex.

I'm waiting for Adam or someone else to come back and say 'oh but Annaleise Dodds talks about biological women'. This is meaningless, it has no basis in the Equality Act and we already have TW like India Willoughby claiming that they are biological women by virtue of the fact that they are biological (in the sense that all humans are) and they hold a GRC so have F on their official documents.

So no it's not impossible or too difficult, or it shouldn't be, if Labour were really committed to protecting women's rights to single sex spaces free from all males.