She said I am insinuating her 4 year old is a pervert

[Strawberrybubbble]

Hello,

My 4 year old daughter has recently started using words to describe her private areas with words I have never used before.

In particular referring to her chest as boobies (not the most offensive I know but just not a word I or her father have ever used) and more grimly fanny.

I had a conversation with her last night just to find out where she had picked these words up - she said another 4 year old boy at her school (she used his name) kept asking her to show him her boobies and fanny. I told her she should not do this and they were hers and hers only.

Anyway, I told her father who has told his cousin immediately (he does have form for not keeping his mouth shut). Said cousin, is good friends with the 4 year old boys mum so it has now got back to her.

I was going to have a chat with her myself on Monday morning just to tell her what my daughter has said (I'd want to know - he has been saying this to 'all the girls' apparently).

Well, she has hit the roof. Said we are disgusting, we are implying her son is a pervert etc., we are wrong in the head, he is 4 years old.

That's absolutely not what we said - we questioned where they were picking up this language and where he had heard it.

Now, I know you can't take a 4 year olds word for certain every time but it is not anything we have ever said, she is not left to her own devices to watch anything unsupervised where she would have picked this up and is only ever looked after at nursery and by my parents (cannot imagine them using that language for a second). She was very clear in naming this boy.

Not sure where to go from here really. I would of liked to just let this mum know myself but my husband and his cousin have jumped in.

What would you make of this? My daughter is my oldest so not experienced this yet, not sure of a suitable reaction other than reminding her, her private parts are hers and hers only.

Minnie is a stupid word for it, wouldn't have a clue what the child was talking about. At least with fanny most people understand and it's not a terrible/grim word fgs.

Obviously not the point of the thread but adding my thoughts!

@BlindurErBóklausMaður Your inability to understand the nuance here is stunning. Children exhibit this behavior whether you want them to or not. This is fact. How we support children is by teaching them to assess their own boundaries and assert them, and on the other side of the interaction, to assess their actions empathetically, as to whether what they say and do negatively affect their friends and playmates.

Calling me an apologist for sexual inappropriateness is ridiculous. I advocate for children learning their own healthy boundaries and asserting them, and teaching children to pick up on nuance and context for where they express their curiosity and considering their playmates empathetically. Clearly you didn't even read the link I posted either, dismissing it outright. I feel sorry for any children you interact with. You aren't protecting children, you're controlling them.

Edit: clearly stated I know the difference between fanny in the US and fanny in the UK. You are being purposefully obtuse here.

Maybe it’s a regional thing. ‘Minnie’, ‘Mary’ and ‘Fanny’ are used where I live. Plus any other random girl’s name.

This is ridiculous. It refers to the same part of the body and you decide one is 'rude' and one isnt

They're both ridiculous words

The point is not whether the words are rude or not, but that they are not the ones the OP's child uses, so she knew it must have come from some interaction with another child/person in which those words were used.

Some posters on here need to familiarise themselves with the Brook traffic light tool.

Just to reassure you @Strawberrybubbble I think that you are dealing with this well. Don’t be tempted to engage with the other family and as you’ve already stated, speak with the school.

Saying bum and then giggling is totally different to a boy harassing girls by asking them to lift their tops up and show him their chests. OP needs to speak to the school.

This.

Our DD says vulva, and penis. Much better that a child is understood rather than these ridiculous euphemisms.

DD has a toy Minnie Mouse, could be very easily misinterpreted.

I don’t know how many times I have to repeat myself. I agree that children should be taught that it’s completely inappropriate to ask other children to expose themselves. OP should definitely talk to the school about.

My comment was in relation to pp being horrified by the language used.

OP, if I were you I'd send an email to the Designated Safeguarding Lead today, saying that you will be at school on Monday and would like to meet with her/him at 8.30 (or whatever time).

Don't leave it until Monday morning and then ask the admin team if anyone is available for a chat. Make it clear that this is a formal request for a meeting on a safeguarding issue.

Sadly, you may need to be ahead of the other parent who might want to sling mud at your family for spreading rumours. You sound level headed, so get in with the facts first.

As others have said definitely highlight with school. Some kids are interested in others, we ve definitely had lads looking at/comparing 'willies' in the loos and as a school reinforce private body areas etc with no further issues
BUT
there may be other concerns already, there could be previous events with Siblings/family or with this child and this information could be used to format plans/actions.

Its right to raise it with the school but it is normal for children (who have just learned about differences in particular) to want to show or be shown body parts, its part of normal curiosity as well as being a worry if its coming from a place where the child is exposed to inappropriate behaviour.

But no one knows this until its looked at.

That’s a good update OP glad they accepted responsibility including a peace offering to the Mum.

With regards to the other mother's angry messages - offence is the best line of defence. She thinks if she acts offended enough, you'll drop the whole thing - and she will have defended her child adequately. Unfortunately, that's not parenting. She ought to be wondering where her child has learned that asking a classmate to see parts of their body that kids are taught ought/need to remain private for their own protection, is "normal" (I know that if it were my child doing this... I would be horrified, not angry!).

School are the best ones to deal with it - and make sure you tell them that she has deliberately sought you out on social media to harangue you (show them the messages, too) because that's also a massive red flag when it comes to safeguarding. Something isn't quite right in this little boy's life - and it needs to be addressed for his own sake (not to mention your child and who knows how many others he's said this to, and they've actually done so...).

When my son (19) was in Yr 4, there was a boy in his class who was overtly sexual towards the other kids. Everyone, including the teacher, sort of turned a blind eye about the humping of girls if they bent over a table, the comments that the kids were actively telling their parents about that he was making to/about them, it was all fodder for the cliquey mums who don't like to rock the boat... but love to gossip. Well, the day my son came out of school and told me that this other boy had thrust his penis against my son's hip in class, in full view of everyone, and demanded to "see his package" whilst trying to grope his penis through his trousers - I hit the school office. Initiated safeguarding protocol (which they all seemed baffled by - but I was a university lecturer/taught kids younger than my son was on the weekend at a club, so I knew exactly what ought to be done) and was relentless about it. I would have done so when the tales first started drifting through the playground, but until it happened to my own child, it was hearsay. Gossip. I had no actual proof. The school weren't happy - tried to say that my son was lying... until I involved Children's Services (as a last resort, because I knew that this boy was picking it up from somewhere), at which point, an actual investigation took place.

The boy's teenage./young adult brothers thought it was funny to let him watch porn with them. Their mother was totally worn down (huge family, one baby pretty much after another for at least the twelve years that our sons were in the same schools/classes), had absolutely no idea - but would have reacted the exact same way, I daresay, as this boy's mother has done @Strawberrybubbble, because it's a primal maternal instinct to protect our babies... and was in an abusive relationship herself. I don't know the ins and outs of how it resolved itself, but the school did tell me that the boy was in counselling (I was genuinely concerned for his safety, as well as that of the other kids he was assaulting/harassing so that his 17 and 20 year old brothers could have a good laugh at his expense). My son was friends with this boy until they left school and I do know that he grew up to be staunch in standing up to other lads when they tried it on with disinterested girls.

I lost a lot of respect for some of the other mothers I'd made friends with in the playground for their lack of ability to step in and not exactly safeguard... just protect their own kids from this second hand abuse.

Often, all it takes to protect a child in need, is one adult to stand up and say "something isn't right here...".

I dont think the husband has done anything wrong here, not sure why there is the usual jump to insult him and call him names (usual MO on this forum)

While this sort of thing should be treated seriously (it may/may not be a red flag that something untoward is going on), it should also be dealt with quietly and discretely for the sake of all the children involved.

Your husband and his cousin have gone about this entirely the wrong way. I don't blame the mum involved for being annoyed and defensive. Had someone (ideally in authority, so nursery etc) had a quiet word with her rather than rather publicly putting her on the spot, I imagine her reaction would have been rather different. As it is, the whole thing has been dealt with very inappropriately especially given the young ages of the children involved.

Op said the cousin has said he didn’t think of the repercussions of telling the boys mother. This is the problem, neither of the men did, ops husband didn’t think either.

I'd agree with this. And, as I said before, make sure the meeting is held confidentially and most definitely without the parent of the boy present.
Then the OP has done what needs to be done, and the professionals can deal with it leaving her to do exactly as she has been, protecting her child and teaching her bodily autonomy and that if she feels uncomfortable because of what a boy wants her to do, she says no, and tells her mum.

she said another 4 year old boy at her school (she used his name) kept asking her to show him her boobies and fanny.

I would not have spoken to anyone in the family. That's actively causing more issues not less. This is a straight red flag, do not pass go speak to the safeguarding lead at school.

4 year old boy, living with older siblings, girls even….nope …not unacceptable …normal if he’s observing breastfeeding (god forbid he may have asked to see the girls breasts if mpbf mum was using anatomical language with him) , or if he’s had to go into loo with mum and a sister who mum has been saying wipe your Fanny/willy..,,what the heck is family supposed to call these things! Having names, using them out is fine, not at all unacceptable. Worrying if kids don’t know what they’re called in fact.

it’s about him asking to see other child’s private body parts, that is unacceptable and he should have been educated on this by this age. Curiosity is normal, but not asking to see….thats the worrying bit . When I was young, years and years ago, children would often ask to look at each others genitals in playground in infants (were talking 4-6)…safeguarding and conversations with kids around bodily autonomy were not a thing then. I don’t think curiosity is abnormal, it is the lack of boundaries that is worrying in todays environment when parents and schools are more all over this.

to be fair to the OP, she did not reach out to anyone other than her husband.

Not to suggest the cousin's behaviour was ideal: issues like this need to be dealt with through the appropriate channels. But of course a 'normal' first reaction is not to react defensively and immediately go on the offensive. That isn't my general mode of communication.

Actually thinking 'oh gosh why did he do that?' is indeed what would first spring to anyone's mind if they had any insight at all into these situations. I've worked with NOTA, am well aware of the flag system and what the warnings of safeguarding issues are, and would be very concerned here on two counts. One, that it's a potential indicator that my child could have been sexually abused. Two, that he might pose a potential risk to other children. Nobody, but nobody, wants their child to be either a victim or a perpetrator in these situations. And at four, he's too young for this kind of behaviour to have fallen out of the clear blue sky. If there's even the smallest possibility something might have prompted it, I'd want to know what that something was.

All the data held by NOTA at the time I worked with them suggests that if the flags do indicate any of the above, and if they are appropriately and professionally dealt with at a young enough age, the issues are treatable. If they were to progress into adulthood, the rehabilitation of sexual offenders is far more difficult if not impossible. Would anyone want this for their child, if the worst did turn out to be the case? And wouldn't you want to know for sure?

Denial helps nobody, and to suggest that such a response is 'weird' is the only weird thing here in itself.

The husband is entirely entitled and able to talk to a friend/family about something that has happened to him or his family.

It would have been better if the cousin hadnt mentioned it to the boys family but its not crime of the century, the usual name calling though is fairly standard here.

A lot of presumptions being made here.

Maybe the boy heard those words from home. Or maybe he heard them from another child at school and copied them.

Obviously asking to see the OP's daughter's private parts is not on.

This is why school is the right route to take, so they can trace where this began and educate where needed.