She said I am insinuating her 4 year old is a pervert

[Strawberrybubbble]

Hello,

My 4 year old daughter has recently started using words to describe her private areas with words I have never used before.

In particular referring to her chest as boobies (not the most offensive I know but just not a word I or her father have ever used) and more grimly fanny.

I had a conversation with her last night just to find out where she had picked these words up - she said another 4 year old boy at her school (she used his name) kept asking her to show him her boobies and fanny. I told her she should not do this and they were hers and hers only.

Anyway, I told her father who has told his cousin immediately (he does have form for not keeping his mouth shut). Said cousin, is good friends with the 4 year old boys mum so it has now got back to her.

I was going to have a chat with her myself on Monday morning just to tell her what my daughter has said (I'd want to know - he has been saying this to 'all the girls' apparently).

Well, she has hit the roof. Said we are disgusting, we are implying her son is a pervert etc., we are wrong in the head, he is 4 years old.

That's absolutely not what we said - we questioned where they were picking up this language and where he had heard it.

Now, I know you can't take a 4 year olds word for certain every time but it is not anything we have ever said, she is not left to her own devices to watch anything unsupervised where she would have picked this up and is only ever looked after at nursery and by my parents (cannot imagine them using that language for a second). She was very clear in naming this boy.

Not sure where to go from here really. I would of liked to just let this mum know myself but my husband and his cousin have jumped in.

What would you make of this? My daughter is my oldest so not experienced this yet, not sure of a suitable reaction other than reminding her, her private parts are hers and hers only.

Yes I agree, as per my original post.

“The only unacceptable part of all this is the kid asking to see another child’s boobs and fanny, and he needs to be taught that this is wrong.”

But I was replying to someone who had an issue particularly with the language.

@Notsuredontknow I would say "fanny" is on the same level as "dick" - as in not a phrase you would use for a 4 year old. You would say "willy" instead.
(it is difficult for girls as the slang words do seem ruder)

Inappropriate sexual behaviour or language in young children is a potential safeguarding concern and should be reported to nursery and be put through their safeguarding process. This doesn't necessarily mean anything will happen except that nursery will keep an eye out for similar behaviour. A pattern of this behaviour may be cause for concern and nursery should have a robust system for safeguarding concerns.

Ignore anyone saying 'mind your own business '. I've done loads of safeguarding training and the first and most important message is that safeguarding is everyone's job and any concerns, however minor, should be recorded as they may build a picture.

The mistake was your husband's in speaking to his cousin.
Always go through school. I would definitely speak to them on Monday.

Ok. It’s good that the cousin has attempted to smooth this over and the boys mum is willing to cooperate with the school in dealing with this.

I wasn’t putting forwards my “false narrative” . The mum is accusing you (as parents) of labelling her son a pervert.

That is her false narrative. I don’t know where she has got this from.
It all sounds a bit he said/she said at the moment amongst the parents with far too much heightened emotion.

How did you dh react when you told him what dd said? Did you discuss how you would both deal with it?
Hopefully he’s now on board with handling it properly?

Im not taking sides but it seems as though all the adults need to calm down. This could well be nothing more sinister than 4 year olds finding bums, fannies and boobies a funny and entirely innocent curiosity.

Perhaps discuss with dh how you’ll approach this with the school and what action you’d like taken?

Hopefully the other parent has calmed down by Monday too.

Absolutely. You should have gone to the school and got their advice. Not a good idea to tackle the parent.

As the boy is asking to see your dd private areas this is something you need to discuss with the school.

There are protection issues here and the school needs to know.

I find the amount of sexual puritanism here really disturbing. So many people are reacting strongly and deciding it's bad or "not normal" behavior to ask to see another child's genitals.

It is not worrying behavior, it is not abnormal for a 4 year old, boy or girl. This is well established in the literature on child development as part of the normal curiosity of children when it comes to their bodies.

Many of us have experiences of parents reacting badly to these things in our young years and that often saddled us with guilt and sexual difficulties later in life, which is likely where these strong responses come from I surmise.

There is definitely an issue here where the boy needs a loving and compassionate talk about boundaries. It might be that both children were willingly engaged in curiosity about this, but if not, it needs to be made clear to him that his curiosity and interest is totally okay, but that simply asking that we without considering context and empathy for the other child is not healthy and can hurt his friends/playmates. That's all.

I believe this reductive emphasis on 'privacy' and 'yours and yours only' is a slippery slope that can lead to the same sexual dysfunction I've encountered from many people. Children have trouble understanding nuance, and a black and white lesson like this can affect them negatively into adulthood. It is important to teach context, assessing their feelings, and determining their boundaries situationally.

It is important to speak to our children about boundaries in a healthy way that doesn't fall into black or white thinking.

I don't believe the school is always equipped to deal with this either, and we are giving away our parenting responsibilities to schools far too often.

OP, I think you need to do your best to mediate with the other mother, try to connect with her on the fact that you are simply concerned and want to work it out together, apologize for the transgressions of your husband, and de-escalate the situation so that you two can discuss this like human beings. You both care about your kids, and you want to make sure they grow up healthy and happy, socially adjusted, without any guilt or shame associated with their bodies and the curiosity that will develop into their adult sexuality.

That being said there is a small chance it could signal something more nefarious, but jumping to that conclusion right away with emotional responses like I've read here makes more of a problem than a solution.

I'll leave this link here.

https://www.healthychildren.org/English/ages-stages/preschool/Pages/Sexual-Behaviors-Young-Children.aspx

”Show us your fanny” is not a normal thing to hear from a four year old, @Lossilania
It really does suggest he’s hearing / seeing age inappropriate things.

Ignore people saying Mind your own business

Literally no one has said this.

I think youve been given some good advice. Not least to remain calm and not engage with any drama.

Its fine to confide in your husband but I would definitely be trying to work as a team- on the same page on how you’ll both deal with issues like this in future.
There will be more as your dc go through school so pulling together is best x

I believe this reductive emphasis on 'privacy' and 'yours and yours only' is a slippery slope that can lead to the same sexual dysfunction I've encountered from many people

What are you implying @Lossilania ? Why would a firm emphasis on privacy and keeping your private parts to yourself be a) a bad thing for children to adopt even without nuance, and b) how could it possibly lead to “sexual dysfunction” later on? Are you suggesting there are adults who are too private sexually? That hardly seems a bad thing.

Nonsense, it is well within the realm of normal. Children are sponges and pick things up everywhere. Could be an older brother saying those things around him, could be he overheard his parents behind closed doors and he doesn't even know where or what the fanny is. There's all kinds of ways a child can pick up that language and repeat it, and children are smart enough to piece things together. Being highly reactive about such innocuous language is a reflection of adult's own sexual dysfunction. The language, nor the curiosity, nor the asking is abnormal, it is simply important to teach him context and emphasize empathetic thinking that will have him respecting his playmate's boundaries.

I don’t think I have any “sexual dysfunction…
I would nonetheless be appalled to hear those words coming from a young child’s mouth 🤷🏻‍♀️

@DonnaBanana I know this is quite nuanced and hard for people to understand, but children don't always have enough experience to assess what you are telling them. If you speak in very firm and black and white terms like "yours and yours only" it can become a determining factor for them in their lives, as opposed to asking the girl how she felt about it, if she felt uncomfortable then subsequently explaining to her she has a right to set her own boundaries for herself when she wants. Trying to leave it open to the child to decide for herself, within what context, that she is comfortable with these things. That will support her healthy development as she grows into adulthood.

This is anecdotal, but my own mother was extremely firm about sexuality with me as a child, and I had to do much growing and therapy to truly have a relationship with my own sexuality, my own contextual boundaries. I have seen this reflected in many of my colleagues, friends, and family.

@BombaySamphire being appalled at an innocuous word because of your concept of its sexual nature is sexual dysfunction and puritanism. Context is important. Fanny is completely silly and meaningless in America for example. It's just a word.

Your link is from the US.

Those of us who have undergone extensive safeguarding training of minors in the UK do not, on the whole, equate a child using sexually inappropriate language in order to look at the genitals of another child with puritanism.

If you look up UK safeguarding of minors, you'll discover that what the OP's child has disclosed about the other child is deeply concerning and one of the first, and most basic red flags out there.

There are enough apologists for sexual abuse on this thread as it is. We really don't need any more.

NB: for the hard of comprehending, no, I don't think the child is a sexual predator. Yet. But, call me old-fashioned, I like to think our 4 year old girls can go to school without being asked to show their genitalia just because the boy in their class might be living with one.

It has a different connotation in tone in the UK and refers to the vagina.

Are you actually trying to say that in the US, it's ok for boys to ask girls to show them their vaginas?

@BlindurErBóklausMaður As someone who grew up partly in the US and partly in the UK, I really do understand the context of both. But your reading comprehension is clearly lacking, I would ask you to please reread the portions I wrote about the healthy settings of boundaries within specific contexts, which is the crux of the issue.

And yes, it is WELL ESTABLISHED in the children's developmental literature WORLD WIDE that it is totally normal for children to ask to see each other's genitals. This is healthy, normal curiosity for children. Anything that teaches you otherwise is puritanism. I really don't care what training you've had, I disagree with it as a clinical psychologist.

I feel sad for the children that have the influence of such reactive adults that cannot parse out the specifics of a situation and teach them healthy boundaries and support them in contextualizing their normal curiosity.

Bollocks to your diagnosis of my sexual dysfunction and Puritanism.
Jesus…
The word being innocuous in a completely different culture is utterly irrelevant as well 🤷🏻‍♀️

Na sorry. If your bestie comes and tell you that stranger X told Y that your 4 yo is asking to see kids privates, the normal reaction in a normal household is "WTF is that b saying about my kid!" (No offense to OP, I understand she didn't mean for her husband to gossip).

Actually thinking "oh gosh, why did he do that?" is a lot weirder unless there has been other issues in the past.

Coming for the school or even the parents themselves, it's completely different.

@BombaySamphire, look I understand that to you the word is sexually charged. That's fine, in the UK it is. But the emotional reactivity that comes from hearing a child speak something sexually charged is something you really need to question yourself about. This is world over common behavior, either from overhearing adults, siblings, people on the street, whatever, and the child will explore with natural curiosity. Reacting emotionally, saying that you'd be appalled by it, is a sign of a deeper issue with you, and how you understand children and sexuality. This is why I say it is puritanism and sexual dysfunction, because your emotional reaction to it is out of proportion to the actual situation without knowing more details.

I don't see 'fanny' as a normal child term for this. I find it quite rude. We use Minnie for my 5yr old dd. She doesn't know penises exist so we don't have a name for them yet.

Regardless of what he is calling these parts, saying to girls to 'show me your fanny' is not normal for a 4 year old in my opinion.

And I feel sorry for the children exposed to apologists for sexual inappropriateness.

We'll just have to differ I guess.

But I know which side of the line I'm happy to be on. The one protecting the children I work with.

You stick with your apologists.

And a clinical psychologist who has lived in both the UK and the US but doesn't know the difference in the meaning of fanny?

You're pulling my plonker.

Welcome to MN though.

Glad you’re going to the school on Monday, OP.

This behaviour needs flagging urgently. Block the mother - anyone with half a brain would know that children shouldn’t be asking others to show them their private parts.