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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Or are most men just disgusting?

222 replies

Falalalalaa · 02/12/2023 09:59

Works Christmas party last night. Around 20 of us, pretty equal mix of men and women.

The men are field based so live all over the country, we only really see them at events like this. At least half of them, all married or with long term partners or children, were trying it on with a couple of the single girls from the office. They all had hotel rooms and we’re inviting them back, hands everywhere, making disgusting comments, it was just so seedy and sadly predictable.

I know it’s not all men, but still, it’s really fucking depressing. Is it the same at all Christmas parties or do I just work with scumbags?

OP posts:
Thepeopleversuswork · 02/12/2023 14:46

@FreshWinterMorning

What I am sick of is this 'single women are soooo much happier than married women' bullshit. As someone said, this 'study' which probably only polled 1000 of each, is 60 years old.

I am very happily married (over a quarter of a century!) and many other married women I know are very happy too. Conversely, most single women I know are generally miserable and lonely, and struggle financially, working every hour God sends to make ends meet. They are not all on £90K a year, and living in a swanky London apartment, in a high flying professional career, with a dozen friends, and a glorious social life, and taking several holidays abroad every year. Most are on the national minimum wage, they have not got a pot to piss in, they can't afford a daytrip to Rhyl, and as I said, they are very lonely.

And some people say 'men have affairs/men cheat while their little wifey is at home being the dutiful housewife.' Do you think the wives of these men don't have their fun too?As has been said, menANDwomen have affairs. Some men I know who have had affairs, had then with a married women! Not that many have them with single women.

And shocker! Some married couples don't have affairs at at all, and are happy together for many years. Yeah marriage has its ups and downs, but on the whole it's great to have someone to come home to, someone to cuddle up to at night, someone to laugh with, someone to cry with, someone to care for you when you're ill, someone to go out to dinner with/to the cinema/to the theatre/on a daytrip/on holiday. And you can share life's trials and tribulations and the financial burdens. 2 incomes makes life MUCH easier and more pleasant.

Better than being alone, struggling financially, no-one to share anything with, no-one to help you if you're ill, no-one to go away with on holiday etc, and no-one to talk to at night, and no-one to cuddle on the sofa. Yeah I am sure some people will say 'I have friends!' But the fact is, most people are in relationships, so the amount of people to do anything with is very limited.

People do love to bleat this 'single women are happier than married women' trope. Fact is, it's simply not true. Many single women are lonely (hence so many on online dating sites,) and they struggle financially, and are constantly having to work more hours to make ends meet.

Is that a presumptuous and offensive thing to say about single women??? Maybe. Imagine how fucking annoying it is (as a married woman,) to keep hearing that single women are soooooo much happier, and married women are miserable, downtrodden domestic servants to their ever-cheating sleazy husbands. I'm sick of it. It's not true, and it's something single women tell themselves to make themselves feel better. Some people go on about 'smug marrieds!' SMUG SINGLES are worse!

I mean there is smugness, posturing and defensiveness on both sides of this discussion. I think what your slightly gormless philippic misses is that there is still a huge amount of stigma around being single, which is not the case with marriage. Marriage is the default for women and still seen by many people are the preferable state. You're not remotely comparing like with like.

If some people do rather over-egg the idea that being single is underrated (and sometimes they do) could it possibly because they are fighting decades of judgement, in some cases institutional discrimination, generally being patronised and assumed to be suboptimal because of their marital state?

Just maybe some single people are quite enjoying the fact that after being treated like social pariahs for decades people are starting to see their point....

Benibidibici · 02/12/2023 14:48

You'd get fired for pulling that shit where i work. Lots of senior women.

StrictlyComeSnoozing · 02/12/2023 14:58

I also think its absolutely ludicrous to suggest that married people are happier than single people, or vice versa. People have many dimensions to their lives.
I'm married, without children, having been with my partner for almost a quarter of a century, very happily. There's nothing driving us to stay together except the desire to do so. But my marriage is not the same as the next person's marriage.

ArthurbellaScott · 02/12/2023 15:03

Absolutely does not happen in my workplaces, nor in any workplaces that I can recall, tbh.

Thomasina79 · 02/12/2023 15:03

In my experience, and I am retired now (just!) it has always gone on and I think it was worse when I was young. Casual sexism was the norm and women being sexually abused was considered funny. One man in an office kept a ‘lads mag’ full of naked women in his desk and every so often he would take it out, flash it around the room and titter. This was ages ago. He is probably in a care home now. Horrible man.

Grendell · 02/12/2023 15:03

Our holiday work party was last night and I declined attending - if that tells you anything about my experience at work-place social events. Just not worth it. So many incidents with horny men at several job - even setting aside the entire 1980s.

Falalalalaa · 02/12/2023 15:03

ruby1957 · 02/12/2023 13:29

You did say most men - which implies a majority.
Of course MOST men are not like this - and you are being sexist if you believe that based on a few, mostly single, young men who are in your company represent MOST.
I have worked in a predominently mens workplace in my career and there are always one or two who will be a bit 'handy' at a party - just as there are women who get bawdy and drunk.

Do try not to generalise about men.

Did you miss the part where I said these men were either married, or had long term partners and children? Not one of them was single and none of them were young.

Sorry to those who asked, I’ve been out shopping. The industry is construction and the men aren’t sales, they’re either project managers or surveyors.

OP posts:
Falalalalaa · 02/12/2023 15:08

StrictlyComeSnoozing · 02/12/2023 14:26

And what are you planning on doing about it? Or are you going to be complicit in the bad treatment of women in your workplace?

This doesn't happen where I work. I've worked mostly with men for the majority of my career and its always been a very small minority of people who behave that way.

I left before the worst of it happened but senior management were there and according to my manager they aren’t happy and are meeting on Monday.

Ive messaged both girls to check they’re ok, and said that if they choose to take it further I’ll support them 100% and report what I saw.

It does shine a negative light on our workplace though, I wish I worked at one of the companies mentioned here that wouldn’t tolerate that. The seniors may not be happy, but nothing was said last night.

I’m leaving to go into higher education, so thankfully will be out of the workplace for a while but hope my next one has zero tolerance over things like this.

OP posts:
OneMorePlant · 02/12/2023 15:23

TravelInHope · 02/12/2023 12:30

Yes, practically every human male in the universe is a scumbag.
Except all the ones I know.
But hey, you choose your company.

Or maybe I don't look like you and get to see a lot more hidden vile behaviour because of it.

StrictlyComeSnoozing · 02/12/2023 15:26

Falalalalaa · 02/12/2023 15:08

I left before the worst of it happened but senior management were there and according to my manager they aren’t happy and are meeting on Monday.

Ive messaged both girls to check they’re ok, and said that if they choose to take it further I’ll support them 100% and report what I saw.

It does shine a negative light on our workplace though, I wish I worked at one of the companies mentioned here that wouldn’t tolerate that. The seniors may not be happy, but nothing was said last night.

I’m leaving to go into higher education, so thankfully will be out of the workplace for a while but hope my next one has zero tolerance over things like this.

Edited

That isn't OK. If you witnessed unacceptable behaviour and don't report it then you're complicit.

I also work in construction and think its outrageous for people to imply that those in field based roles are predatory in their behaviour towards women.

Naptrappedmummy · 02/12/2023 15:29

StrictlyComeSnoozing · 02/12/2023 15:26

That isn't OK. If you witnessed unacceptable behaviour and don't report it then you're complicit.

I also work in construction and think its outrageous for people to imply that those in field based roles are predatory in their behaviour towards women.

Complicit because she didn’t report it? Are the women subjected to the harassment unable to report it for any reason? Maybe they don’t want to? This is an absurd burden to place on people.

IncompleteSenten · 02/12/2023 15:31

Not most men (she says, hopefully!) but a lot of men. Too many men.
Also, I think some workplaces have, well, a culture of it I suppose would be one way of putting it. They see their colleagues at it and think they can get away with it too.

FrippEnos · 02/12/2023 15:33

Draoicht · 02/12/2023 13:45

And married women regularly groping younger single male colleagues, inviting them back to their hotel rooms and ‘making disgusting comments’ is not exactly widespread behaviour, at Christmas work parties or otherwise.

I wonder if its because you don't notice it, are ignoring it or because you don't want to see the women doing it.

RJ2023 · 02/12/2023 15:58

Back in 2004 to 2006 I used to work for one of the major insurance brokers and the Christmas parties (held in the office) from about 6pm to 11pm were always epic - normally ending with people getting together in the toilets and, on one occassion, the desk of a very senior person in the company.

However, it was never people being groped by senior management - even back then that would have been considered completely inappropriate and an HR moment for the next working day.

Ellie56 · 02/12/2023 15:58

Even if the women targeted don't want to take it further, I'd still make a formal complaint. It's totally unacceptable.

Catslovenip · 02/12/2023 16:02

bombastix · 02/12/2023 10:23

You say this and people explode. Personally I believe it

I know many of my married friends who are parents who are unhappy but continue posting happy family photos on Facebook. It’s a very hard thing to admit to the world as there’s so much pressure on women to be the perfect wife and mum.

Gingerbee · 02/12/2023 16:07

Many years ago I worked in the head office of a uniformed service. I was about 20 and I actually found the chaps looked after me like their kid sister.
Especially,when we went on works night out.
Maybe it is something more in the corporate world.

GetYourBaublesOut · 02/12/2023 16:10

Whether it happens in the open like this or not, my experience of 25 years working in offices - there are a huge number of men 'up for' a workplace fling. Men who otherwise seem like loving family men.

It's one of the reasons I now enjoy working from home. I no longer have to even observe this behaviour. It's too disappointing to see.

MrsElijahMikaelson1 · 02/12/2023 16:13

😠

Ofa · 02/12/2023 16:24

You work with scumbags.

I’ve worked in three offices. One was just like yours 🤢, at the other three none of the married men ever came on to anyone.

Some professions are much seedier than others.

Mikimoto · 02/12/2023 16:31

I left before the worst of it happened

Ah, so you DIDN'T see this alleged behaviour then...

NonPlayerCharacter · 02/12/2023 16:37

Too many of them, yes. Most, I don't know, but far far too many.

Can't say the twit brigade, which is currently taking over MN, of angry impotent men who joined Mumsnet because they couldn't find anything else to complain about and need to correct women, particularly helps.

RamblingEclectic · 02/12/2023 16:38

A lot of disgusting things happen at office parties.

Worst I've seen was a woman who kept starting fights and then hiding behind the guys and eventually supposedly drinking away her taxi fare home and expecting one of the guys to pay for her, which they did, to get her out of there. She wasn't working there long after that.

Sexual harassment wise, it was an older woman who would not leave one of the young men alone - sitting on his lap, grinding herself against him while he kept turning away, propositioning him repeatedly while the lad just looked terrified (and was well known to have a communication disability that made talking a struggle for him. Eventually some of us were able to get him out of there and now on to better employment, she left by other means).

Falalalalaa · 02/12/2023 16:39

Mikimoto · 02/12/2023 16:31

I left before the worst of it happened

Ah, so you DIDN'T see this alleged behaviour then...

No, I DID see exactly what I posted about.

Maybe I didn’t see the worst of it, but what I did see was bad enough. What is your point? Do you think I’m lying, or am I only allowed to be concerned when I’ve witnessed a certain level of this behaviour? Where’s the threshold?

OP posts:
labamba007 · 02/12/2023 16:43

ItAintGonnaGoDownEasyIfItAintCheezy · 02/12/2023 11:10

I've never experienced this and I've been in construction for over 20 years.

The blokes at the site Christmas parties, so operatives/trades rather than corporate - who I imagine a lot of MN would look down their noses at and expect this behaviour from, would be appalled. And I was going to those at the end of the 90s/early 2000s. Never experienced any sexism or harrassment at all.

So it must the culture where you work/your industry, op.

I don't know why but I always picture office based men in these scenarios never construction or other male dominated industries!