British or English?

[moijejoue]

DH is born in London. Both his parents were born in India They're all brown. I would have described DH as British Indian. DH says he isn't Indian, can't speak the language, has never been and doesn't know anything about it and is English.

My background is that I was born in Norfolk, parents born in England but both sets of grandparents were born in India. I'm brown. I've always called myself British and not English. DH says I've bought into the racism. And there needs to be a culture shift in seeing people who are non-white as English. And for example, brown people in Scotland call themselves Scottish and not British. And for how many more generations will my descendents call themselves British and not English.

We have a baby DC and I would have also described her as British and not English. He said we should raise her to say she is English. But I feel like that isn't right. AIBU?

You are all both British and English in my opinion. Your DH is right, the reserving of “English” for white British is racism. The nationalist justification is usually that white British are descended from the Angles (a tribe of Saxons), who are “the English.”

But that was 1,500 years ago that this one tribe settled in East Anglia. Lots of other ethnicities were here before, during and after that.

The fact is that the vast majority of white British today, they are not even genetically English anyway. They’ve done DNA tests and most white British are barely more than 50% anything originally British! (lots of French, German, Scandinavian, Netherlands, Russian, Irish, Spanish,Italian, Polish, Hungarian, etc). The white nationalist types just act like they have always been here since “the Romans” or “year dot” and they can convince themselves of it because until recent history most of Europe did most of its inter-mixing with other white ethnicities. So it’s not so visible, easier to pretend your family hasn’t got a bit of diversity in it, when everyone’s does.

English today should mean born or raised in England. British is anyone who is a British citizen. So, you are all both at a minimum. You can also have other identities on top of this as well, there is nothing that says you can’t consider yourself English & Indian culturally and British & Indian dual citizen. Lots of people have multicultural identities and multinational citizenships.

You're both British

And English. ;)

You're both English and British.

And for how many more generations will my descendents call themselves British and not English.

My ancestors came over with William the Conqueror and I think of myself as English. Don't know how many generations that is, but time-wise it's less than 1000 years 😁

Language quibble only here -- I would have said both of you are Indian British or Indian English because the first word is the adjective or ethnic description, the second is your nationality.

As for English vs British, I do agree that "English" is a bit tainted by the whole St George's flag trick -- ie unless it's a sports match English is an anti-brown concept (I myself am brown btw) and British is not only the government choice and the modern choice

Where do all those lines crossing out come from ??? MN do something-- this happens too much

Surely you are both British and English, as are all people born in England?

Everyone has 1,073,741,824 (just over a billion) ancestors from 1,000 years ago. So all your other ancestors came from somewhere else, somewhen else.

English means you were born in England, British means you are a British National but not born in England.

British means you are a British National but not born in England.
No it doesn’t!

OP, I agree with your DH.

I think it might be your phone/device, I can’t see what you’re referring to.

That's a great answer.

Anyone born and bred in England is English (and British)...so I would say OP is English of Indian descent.

The only occasions where I would say British is used exclusively are those who emigrated to England (or Britain), for example Freddie Mercury; those of mixed English/Scottish/Welsh parentage, for example Emma Thompson (she has stated this preference for herself); and those who moved around Britain (so born in one country but spent much time in another), for example Roald Dahl (born in Wales, lived most of his life in England), Gordon Ramsay (born in Scotland, lived mostly in England), and JK Rowling (born in England, lived mostly in Scotland).

As for English vs British, I do agree that "English" is a bit tainted by the whole St George's flag trick -- ie unless it's a sports match English is an anti-brown concept

How on Earth does English = 'anti-brown'? That's as mad as saying that Scottish = 'anti-English'; or, for that matter, Indian = 'anti-white'. Why is the use of the St George flag a 'trick'?

I'm not a fan of flying it myself - I'm not especially patriotic and I think that where you're born is just a matter of chance, rather than a cause for pride - and I realise that a lot of people use it in a negative patriotic way i.e. not to celebrate England and the English but to exclude and foment hatred against those who are not (or may indeed be English, but are perceived as 'not English' by the extremely hard of thinking).

Racists also drink water, eat bread, drive cars and use the internet - it doesn't meant that any of those things are inherently racist, though.

If somebody was born in London, England, and identifies as English, I think it's quite arrogant for anybody to tell him that he mustn't.

British means you are a British National but not born in England.

I would really love to hear your reasoning as to how you arrived at that bizarre belief!

*actually just thinking about it, those who emigrated to England don't have to be exclusively British.. Raheem Sterling for example, although born in Jamaica he's English. Really I suppose it's where you are reared. England is so diverse (40% of Londoners were born outside the UK) and multicultural so the English are a complete mix.

Nationality, culture and race are all different things. It's possible for a person to have differences in each category. Americans do it everyday, so can you both.

British refers to all of Britain, and English refers to England. Surely it's not more complicated than that.

Yeah I’ve come across this before too, I feel more comfortable calling myself British Indian probably because of racism I’ve experienced.

Your husband has a good point, I wonder if people who are white with recent migration in their heritage have the same feelings about it, I’m not sure I’ll ever feel comfortable calling myself English.

I’m White British and you’re all British Indian. I would never describe myself as English unless required to distinguish myself from Scottish/Welsh/N Irish. I have no problem with people saying they’re Welsh etc but I just prefer to be British.

I’m Afro Caribbean and I’d never call myself English either, nor would I personally want to. He has a point, but somehow British seems aligned with the various immigrant experiences so feels very compatible as an identity with having multiple cultures. I also like the kinship I feel with people of different backgrounds that comes from that. English would just feel like the start of an attempt to completely assimilate.

You can both describe yourselves however you want to and feel comfortable. No one has any business telling you otherwise.

Obviously your DH is English.

There's a different between nationality and ethnicity
I agree with you - your husband born in England is English but British Indian ethnicity - his influences being brought up will be a mix of Indian heritage with English environmental factors - thus British Indian - ethnicity draws on heritage

Might not be to everyone's agreement but that's how I have always understood it - it's acknowledging your parents roots but where you were born

Did you actually read the OP?

The husband explicitly does not identify as Indian. He identifies as English, not British Indian/ English Indian.

Outside of the big cities not so much?
I am brown, my mother is of Goan descent. She came to England during partition as a child. My father is white English. I grew up in the depths of the Sussex countryside where it’s quintessentially English. Whilst my looks were definitely commented on there was no negativity. Britain or British was reserved for more political areas such as war, royalty etc. I always think of myself as English and it annoys me that drop down menus only have U.K. as an option.

As to St George I loved the George and the Dragon story, like that Barcelona also shares st George. I don’t feel we are particularly into flags as a nation though unlike the US say. I’m upset the idea of the St George’s cross representing racist football hooligans for many but I struggle to think of when I would want to use the English flag outside of sport. The Union Jack is better maybe because flag waving suits bigger occasions which suit thinking of ourselves as British.

If you put 2 - and then 2 more - after a sentence it puts a line through it!

So looking at the double -- above I imagine that's what you did?

But despite the lines I agree with what you wrote!