British or English?

[moijejoue]

DH is born in London. Both his parents were born in India They're all brown. I would have described DH as British Indian. DH says he isn't Indian, can't speak the language, has never been and doesn't know anything about it and is English.

My background is that I was born in Norfolk, parents born in England but both sets of grandparents were born in India. I'm brown. I've always called myself British and not English. DH says I've bought into the racism. And there needs to be a culture shift in seeing people who are non-white as English. And for example, brown people in Scotland call themselves Scottish and not British. And for how many more generations will my descendents call themselves British and not English.

We have a baby DC and I would have also described her as British and not English. He said we should raise her to say she is English. But I feel like that isn't right. AIBU?

I feel like if I heard in a conversation someone describe a person I haven't met yet as English, I would assume they were white. But perhaps that's my own learned prejudice?

Yes, it certainly sounds that way.

Why should somebody with Asian heritage be expected to identify (absolutely fine if they choose to) as British Indian or Asian British or similar? If a white British-born person had had white German grandparents, nobody would be insisting that they must always identify as 'German British'. Your nationality and the colour that your skin happens to be are two entirely separate things.

Personally, I always identify as British, and if asked which country I am from, I will always say the UK. If people ask for further detail to narrow it down for any reason, I will gladly clarify - but to me, if people ask my nationality, I wouldn't initially think to say that I'm English any more than I might say that I'm from (e.g.) Staffordshire, or Lichfield, or Acacia Avenue.

However, although it isn't something that I personally embrace, I do think it's a very sad state of affairs when being English is seen as 'racist' by default. Racism is a mindset, an action and a choice; not something that you are 'assigned' at birth.

The racist idiots who deliberately use the St George's flag in a negative way to be divisive and exclude non-white people are to be pitied for their sheer stupidity - as if there is one person they would be determined to keep out, it would surely be the Turkish Arab St George.

Are there any Dutch people on this thread? I'd be interested to know what the general consensus is at a huge amount of people across the world believing that their whole country is just two of the twelve provinces.

It's outrageous enough in Britain, when people assume that 'Britain/British = England/English', even though only 85% of the people are British and 62% of the land area is England; but when the majority of your land and people are not from Holland, it must be so infuriating for people to refer to your entire country by the name of one relatively small part of it.

@TomeTome and @Lougle

Ah ok. Now I get what you're saying but that is not how TomeTome's original comment implied. It implied that those born in England were no longer British full stop. What is meant is those born in the UK are not automatically British citizens due to their place of birth - you need a British parent to be a British citizen. Which is common for many other countries too so probably UK law catching up.

It isn't automatic based on being both in the UK, but you don't need a British parent to be a British citizen.

If you're born in the UK to at least one parent with settled status (but not British nationality), you will still be eligible for British citizenship.

Could there be a class element there too? I'm white, fairly middle class upbringing and grew up in a northern city, therefore am British rather than English. I would have expected most of my class mates to consider themselves British rather than English too. This may be partly in (misplaced?) middle class sympathy/virtue signaling from teachers and parents because most of my class mates were not white. English was for small town white football hooligans, and they were welcome to it 20 or 30 years ago.

I live abroad now. I say British or English depending on the language, mostly based on how easy each is to pronounce. Nothing more shameful than not being able to pronounce your own nationality

I agree with your husband.

I refer to myself as English mostly as I feel I am geographically in the south east very far away from Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, I don't have any ancestory from those countries as far as I am aware and I do have scadanvian heritage that is not too far back and I would consider that more relevant to my upbringing.

My other half is born in London to parents from another place, is brown, she would say she's from London/England but wouldn't call herself English. She calls herself British.

I'm born in a different country, and my parents are from another country again but I've lived here since I was a kid. I am white and most people would assume English and I have dual nationality in fact and sometimes call myself British, sometimes call myself my birth nationality but would never call myself English.

I am English, born in England as were both my parents. I am also British.

If a person was born in England but one or both parents were born in a different country then they are British.

However if a person's grandparents were born in another country but both their parents were born in England then that person is English as well as British.

I am English because I was born in England, and I'm British because England is one country that's part of the British Isles. My cultural, religious or racial background is irrelevant. That's how I see it.

Not only English people, Scottish and Welsh too.

I was born in an Asian country but I came to the UK as a 1yo and grew up here. My parents and grandparents grew up in the Asian country. I got British nationality as a child, aged about 7. I think because of my passport, I'd consider myself as British and I'd never call myself English as that's a bit more subjective. My younger sister was born in England but she'd say she was British too. We don't have citizenship of the Asian country and I don't refer to it when describing myself.

I say English. Britain is three countries not one.

It won't surprise you that I consider myself Welsh above all.

The Kingdom of Great Britain consisted of two countries and a principality prior to the Union of Crowns and Parliament.

But since then, England, Scotland and Wales do not exist except as a constituent part of the United Kingdom along with Northern Ireland.

English, Welsh, Scottish and Northern Irish are NOT nationalities. They are, quite correctly, regional identities which is a very different thing.

So, the citizens of the UK are all automatically British as shown in various official documents, e.g. passport. We are all British in addition to English, Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish. In addition to other British people being Channel Islanders, Gibraltarians and Falklanders. One nationality and one regional identity. The US does it similarly - nationality is USA (not American) and regional identity is the State they're from.

In some international agreements, the UK Government uses "Britain" as a shorthand for the United Kingdom. So, there is just the one country today - UK aka Britain.

Not three or four.

You don't see England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland listed separately in countries of the world lists. But you do see the United Kingdom.

But how is DC mixed race if both me and DH have Indians parents and no other influence on a genetic level? Just because DH and I were born in England, I didn't think that would make DC mixed race?

But wouldn't their race be English? Or ethnicity be English?

English, Welsh, Scottish and Northern Irish are NOT nationalities. They are, quite correctly, regional identities which is a very different thing.

National identities, surely. Wales is not a region of the UK. Scotland is not a region of the UK. England is not a region of the UK. Etc.

My DNA is 98% Britain & Ireland 1.8 European. I was born in Wales and consider myself Welsh Even though only 28% of my DNA is Welsh.
You, in my opinion, are English.

To me you're English when talking to someone from the UK and British when talking to everyone else

To be fair, the name was officially "Holland" until the Dutch Government decided to change it officially to "Kingdom of the Netherlands" in January 2020.

It'll take decades for most people to catch up with calling it "Netherlands" instead of "Holland".

Very different to our situation where the official name has only been "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland" in our lifetimes since 1920.

It’s a funny one. I used to work with ESOL students when I was doing my PhD and I always said I was English to them because they seemed to understand that better than British. The term British wasn’t as well known to them as English so I’d just say English for ease.

Ordinarily I’d say I’m British though, English doesn’t sit as well with me and I feel as though the English identity is embroiled with racism and bigotry.

Flat out wrong.

You see, our sovereign country is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

Our sovereign Government is the United Kingdom Government.

This means England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are themselves NOT sovereign countries. They are, in fact, constituent parts of the United Kingdom.

In other words, England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are all regions of the United Kingdom.

That's why when you look at your passport's Nationality section it never states English, Scottish, Welsh or Northern Irish since these are simply regional identities.

It's no different to other countries.

Do you mean "different from"?

I'm not sure you're correct in law. Certainly not in common usage.

References to "the devolved nations" and "home nations" and "national identity" are commonly made by official and unofficial but reputable establishments.

Conversely I've never heard anyone in Parliament refer to "the region of Scotland" Or "devolved regions" for example.

No, I mean "different to" as how the UK formed was actually no different to how France, Spain or Germany formed, for example.

I am actually correct in law - domestic and international. The official term the UK Government and institutions use is Constituent Part. This* *is another way of saying region of the UK.

We do use the term "devolved" which is clear those areas are very much territory belonging to the Sovereign State known as the United Kingdom. Since they're part of the UK State, they're also regions of the UK itself.

There is no real need to state "the region of..." in speech in Parliament since the understanding is already there each part is a region of the UK itself.

Nor is there any real need to do so in informal speech.

But the position is clear - England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are NOT sovereign countries and their respective identities are, therefore, not nationalities.

That's why the Sovereign Power designates us all as British as per 1981 British Nationality Act.

In the UK census, you're simply asked how you would describe your national identity. This is not the same thing as the Sovereign Power agreeing the English, Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish are nationalities as much as British. They definitely don't accept that which is clear from our passports, for example.

We still come back to England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland all being regions of the United Kingdom itself.

I find it a bit odd that he doesn't identify as Indian at all seeing as that is his cultural and ethnic background. Yes, he is both British and English with Indian heritage as he will always be seen as by others.
I don't think it's racist to think otherwise. I am mixed race and have no issue if anyone ask me where my parents are from. I was born in London, mum is English and dad Caribbean. It's a fact and I'm proud of it.
I don't understand why people get upset about these things. Growing up most of my friends were Irish, Jamaican, Nigerian etc but we were all born in London. We called ourselves English/whichever country our parents came from.

Even professional institutions such as the Chartered Institution of Highways & Transportation (CIHT) lists them as regions.

Since England is so big, they further subdivide it but its still a region of the UK itself.