British or English?

[moijejoue]

DH is born in London. Both his parents were born in India They're all brown. I would have described DH as British Indian. DH says he isn't Indian, can't speak the language, has never been and doesn't know anything about it and is English.

My background is that I was born in Norfolk, parents born in England but both sets of grandparents were born in India. I'm brown. I've always called myself British and not English. DH says I've bought into the racism. And there needs to be a culture shift in seeing people who are non-white as English. And for example, brown people in Scotland call themselves Scottish and not British. And for how many more generations will my descendents call themselves British and not English.

We have a baby DC and I would have also described her as British and not English. He said we should raise her to say she is English. But I feel like that isn't right. AIBU?

Billy Bragg wrote a very good book on his anger at the right appropriating the flag of st George as "their" symbol. Why should the left or liberals lie back and humbly submit their flag? Reclaim it. If the term English has become perverted by football hooligans or racist thugs then why not reclaim it - English socialist, English worker.
I write this as a Scot.

Don't think English is perverted by racists. It's a cultural and ethnic identity which has been well described by posters below. Because we have a "British" nationality and obtain passports or citizenship then that's the actual thing to say "I am British".

Saying you are English, or indeed Scottish or Welsh is about the background of who you are. I don't have any Welsh heritage but could trace my forebears to Orkney and Yorkshire until the 1600s. Identity is more complex than a political idea like "Britain".

Both my parents were born and raised in England, but only one is ethnically English (generations and generations). My other parent isn't white or English but her nationality is British. She can't be English because her parents, grandparents, great grandparents and so on weren't born in England.

Different ethnicities are at risk for different diseases/conditions so OP should tick the Asian box on ethnicity forms (medical settings), not English/British. I tick the mixed white Asian box even though both of my parents were born in England. I am mixed race.

In the US, there are African Americans and Asian Americans. In the UK, OP and her husband and child are Indian British.

I find the whole thing a bit sad. Most of us identify ourselves from the place we were born and grew up. Cultural influences are important but at the end of day whether you identify as British, English or Indian means little to your children. How you feel is essential to you, like it is to your husband. How your children will feel and identify themselves is up to them.

Buying into racism is not accepting personal choice as an essential human right into what culture or country a person identifies with.

It's a nice idea but I don't think it's true. We are conditioned by our history and where our forebears lived. To ignore that is to ignore an important aspect of being human. Difference is a fact. A racist would say this matters, whereas you can integrate and adapt to differences and cultures wherever you live. But it's not racism to point out that Englishness, like Scottishness is cultural and ethnic status and is drawn from a dominantly white background. It's historically accurate. To deny our origins is just to pretend like a child. Because we are all British, then we are much freer to explore and acknowledge our history and heritage.

Her husband is ethnically Indian and culturally British, he'll never be English no matter how much he feels it.

I think there is confusion between culture and ethnicity. I am English and I am white, my parents are English and are white. My grandparents, parents and myself were all born and raised in the south of England. Like me, they are ethnically and culturally English and white.

You'll be hard pressed to find an ethnically English person, even if they're only part English, who doesn't have any white in them.

While writing this post out I do get the sense that it's frowned upon to be proud of one's national identity if one is English.

I am white and I am English and I am proud of it.

Sorry, but that sounds like Tommy Robinson could have written that.

Her husband is ethnically Indian and culturally British, he'll never be English no matter how much he feels it.

What's the scientific or legal definition of "English" that you're using here, and where exactly is this set out?

Or are you just stating your opinion on what it means to be English without any scientific or legal basis? In which case, why exactly do you feel that your opinion has any more validity than anyone else's?

As far as I'm concerned, "being English" is neither a scientific fact nor a legally defined concept, so I think it's open to interpretation and opinion. As such, if the OP's DH - who was born in England and grew up in England - chooses to identify as English, who are you to say that he is not?

Get a DNA ethnicity test and you will see this is a load of BS. You are likely less than 50% English, as that is true of most white British in the studies they have done.

In addition, there were Black English people living in Britain since Roman times. They just published a study showing that Black English women were the most likely to die of the Black Death in London in 1348.
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/nov/21/women-with-black-african-ancestry-at-greater-risk-when-plague-hit-london

The English ethnicity, while named after a single tribe of Germanic Saxons that settled and colonised East Anglia, is an ethnicity that has been racially mixed for over two thousand years. Its not a case of the whiter you are, the more English you are.

Lol. Life's too short for this crap. Bye now.

Ethnicity is not synonym for race. An ethnic group is a group of people with a common culture, language, values and identity. An ethnicity can be predominantly monoracial to being very multiracial depending on the history of migration, emigration/immigration, conquest/colonisation and so on.

There is no such thing as an English race just like there is no French or German or Russian or Chinese race.

You must be new to online discussion fora - where participation is entirely optional.

However, if you do choose to participate, it's considered rather poor form to flounce and make out that your time (and opinion) is much more important than everybody else's, just because they happen to disagree with you.

I think people typically respond in this manner when they realise that they aren't capable of articulating a well-reasoned response. It's easier to dismiss other people's posts as crap than it is to admit that you don't have a valid argument.

This is very true.

This makes no sense.

I'm White British = "Skin Color + Nationality"
You’re all British Indian = "Nationality + Ethnicity"

Which one is it?

You are English and British.
I am white, born in England, I call myself British .
You can call yourselves whatever you prefer but if you want to call yourselves English you are certainly entitled to . Your partner is not Indian but he has Indian heritage.

No it doesn't! Anyone born in England, Scotland or Wales is British. I was born in England, my parents grandparents and great grandparents were born in England. I am British!

You are both British.

The English are a racial group who happen to be white. But English can also (and more importantly) mean belonging to the nation of England and race doesn’t come into that, it’s about values and culture.

Yes I was responding to the previous poster and clarified that you were also British if you were born here as you would know if you continued reading.

I’m not brown, but I feel English, because that’s where I’ve lived in the U.K when I haven’t lived abroad. I can’t feel Scottish or Welsh, however much I like those countries - I’ve never lived in either.

If I have to state my official nationality, of course it’s British, but to me that’s a different thing.

Depends what it is about. Generically I'm British but more specifically I'm English (just ruling out being Scottish, Irish or Welsh) although my family are Scottish/Irish a generation or two back (on one side).

Scottish, English, Welsh and NI British are all different. While we do have lots in common, we also have very different cultural influences. So I can't see how the OP's dh is wrong to see himself as English rather than British if he was born and brought up in England and feels no connection to the other parts of the UK - English is his culture.
Given that we are a bit of a melting pot of different influences, I think re nationality we are largely what we feel ourselves to be.

British as a nationality doesn't really mean anything to the constituent populations, who all still feel affiliated to one of the home nations and not with the others, irrespective of legal status and what it says on our passports.