British or English?

[moijejoue]

DH is born in London. Both his parents were born in India They're all brown. I would have described DH as British Indian. DH says he isn't Indian, can't speak the language, has never been and doesn't know anything about it and is English.

My background is that I was born in Norfolk, parents born in England but both sets of grandparents were born in India. I'm brown. I've always called myself British and not English. DH says I've bought into the racism. And there needs to be a culture shift in seeing people who are non-white as English. And for example, brown people in Scotland call themselves Scottish and not British. And for how many more generations will my descendents call themselves British and not English.

We have a baby DC and I would have also described her as British and not English. He said we should raise her to say she is English. But I feel like that isn't right. AIBU?

I was born in England, live in England and have a British passport issued in England, but I don't call myself English. I'm British.

I don't identify with the term English because most of my ancestors were either Welsh or Irish with a tiny bit of Scottish thrown in. Many of my family members still live in Scotland/Wales/Ireland. For me, British is a much better description of my identity than English, which erases much of my heritage.

Legally, I'm British because I have a British passport. There is no legal definition of English, so if I decide that I don't regard myself as English, that's my prerogative. It's just a personal choice as to how people wish to describe themselves.

Yes that’s more correct.

It is very common among the overseas British community to return to the uk to have your children to avoid on going status confusion.

I don’t recognise the racist implication of being “English”. To me it is just factual, “born in England” and no indication of your ethnicity or culture.

Your husband is wrong. My parents were both born in England but my mum's ethnicity is an Asian one and my dad's ethnicity is English. Mum's nationality is British, but her ethnicity isn't. This means that I am mixed race. Your child's ethnicity is half English half Indian. Nationality will be British.

i agree with your husband and think your attitude is very divisive

i have foreign parents but was born/brought up here - I consider myself English and british

dh is a first gen immigrant so he considers himself British and his other nationality

i kind of think that’s the beauty of this place - being British is broad. I know in my dh country there is a lot of resentment to first gen immigrants using that nationality

also, when I ask someone where they are from I don’t expect someone to give me their parents/grandparents origins - in your case I would expect you to say Norfolk.

Exactly. Ethnicity and nationality are different. I was born and grew up in Scotland, my parents too, and I consider myself ethnically Scots. Its my heritage, but I too hold a British passport.

People can identify as they like. Non-White born here and have had the 'go back home' shouts especially.

Aside from that you've asked on MN so the obvious answers would majorly apply of course wouldn't they

Well there is about an 85% chance that the English person you hear spoken of will be white, same if you heard a British person being spoken of. I think if somebody asks where you are from / your nationality they are interested to know that, not where your ancestors or from or even where your parents are from.

I think your husband answers in a more “normal” manner than you do in that respect to be honest. Other than as mentioned earlier, I would find it weird to describe myself as English (even though I am) but I tend to say British because that is what my passport says and I believe that is what I am legally.

I am English as I was born in England. I live a few miles from Wales so have lots of Welsh friends. A few of my friends are Scottish too. We all have British passports as we live on the island of Great Britain and are part of the United Kingdom. I love the different cultures of all the parts of the UK. I love the languages, food, countryside, shared history etc. (yes, some of it was painful and wrong) but at the end of the day I was born in England and I am proud to be English (as my friends are proud to be Welsh and Scottish)

As I mentioned in a previous post, my mum was born in England and has always lived here. She is still an Asian ethnicity though because her parents and their parents etc are/were. My dad is white and English. I am mixed race. It's weird that people say it's racist that only white people can be English. If a white baby is born in Uganda to white English parents, is it OK for them to say they are Ugandan and not English even though English is their ethnicity?

Your husband's ethnicity is Indian and his nationality is British so I'd say he's British Indian. Your child is mixed race, like me.

I think if somebody asks where you are from / your nationality they are interested to know that, not where your ancestors or from or even where your parents are from. This is not my experience of what people want or intend when they ask this question.

I think either is fine - anyone can identify as either British or one of the nations that make up Britain regardless of race.

I identify as British rather than English although I live and was brought up in or around London - but it’s more because I have Scottish and Welsh ancestry as well as English on my British side than because my mother’s family were from abroad.

I am British and Welsh. My father was Irish but I was born in Wales. My DC were born in England and their father is North African. They consider themselves English and British.

What if you have a Welsh parent, born and raised in Wales, and a parent who was born and raised in England but who has a Scottish parent?

I don't consider myself English. I'd say British because a) that's the nationality on my passport and I'm not that attached to an identity beyond that. And b) I wouldn't think English felt particularly accurate

But if a non-white person said they were English rather than British - as they were born and brought up in England rather than Scotland, Wales or NI - that wouldn’t be wrong either.

I think you are definitely English.

We're British internationals. We have multiple nationalities (although British is the only one we all have in common). Dc and I were born abroad, Dh born in London but lived more of his life abroad than in the UK (as have I). Dc never lived in UK.

So I usually use British rather than English. But if pushed, we would say English, as our time in UK was in England, and we are definitely not Scottish, Irish or Welsh (never lived there and no meaningful links, although one of dc's great grandparents was a bit Irish - but then every American president claims the same...).

Absolutely nonsense!

British means someone born or from anywhere in one of the United Kingdom's four constituent parts of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. 🤦‍♂️

In addition to those born in or from Isle Of Man, Channel Islands, Gibraltar and the Falklands as they're British also.

@moijejoue if you and your husband both look inside your passport you'll find "British" but not "English". So, the nationality is British and the regional identity is English - it has to be remembered that England is NOT a sovereign country whereas the United Kingdom is a sovereign country.

The OP's parents were born in England. She was born in England. How much "heritage" does she need?

Also, the British went and colonised India, so there is all kinds of historical and genetic heritage interweaved between the two countries.

You are basically saying the OP has no "British heritage" because she is brown.

If a white baby is born in Uganda to white English parents, is it OK for them to say they are Ugandan and not English even though English is their ethnicity?

Yes. Yes, it is.

@MrsBennetsPoorNerves describes my position perfectly. Welsh on father’s side and Scottish on mother’s, my sibling and I were born in England (just). I call myself British as it better reflects my heritage. I don’t feel English but I do feel British

You're all both. Nationality British (ie passport), upbringing / geography / accent etc, English.

Stop arguing.

I was born and raised in England but one of my parents is Scottish. I describe myself as 'British' or 'Half-Scottish' depending on context, but never English.

Mostly I think that people are whatever they feel themselves to be, with regard to British or English/Welsh/Scots/N Irish. And that varies according to ethnicity, history, family opinion, cultural upbringing. My dc were born and brought up in Wales, with an English mum, but don't all agree on whether they are more Welsh than English in how they feel.

Personally I think your dh is right - I wouldn't describe myself as belonging to a country if I'd never visited it and didn't speak the language. I have Irish ancestry but wouldn't apply for an Irish passport even though I'm technically allowed to have one because I've never been there, have no intention of living there and it doesn't feel like 'me'. Your husband is English because that's his culture and birthplace and upbringing and where his loyalties lie. His ancestry is Indian but that isn't him. You could have the same ancestry snd see yourself completely differently.

No, no it isn't. You are only Ugandan if you have Ugandan citizenship. To get citizenship by birth, one of your parents must have Ugandan citizenship.

I think you are both right. There is flexibility depending on how you feel.

Your husband obviously feels less of a connection to his Indian roots than you do. If, like your husband, you were born and raised in England and only speak English then it is understandable that you feel only English. I'm 3rd generation from a Jewish background on one side of my family. I know nothing about Judaism so feel no link. I feel English.

I feel English not British because Scotland and Wales are different to England, recognised by their own parliaments, and in Wales, their own language that I don't speak. Dual language signs are going according to recent press so going to Wales won't be much different than going to France (except that I can speak a bit of French!).

No they could never call themselves English because they were not born in England.