British or English?

[moijejoue]

DH is born in London. Both his parents were born in India They're all brown. I would have described DH as British Indian. DH says he isn't Indian, can't speak the language, has never been and doesn't know anything about it and is English.

My background is that I was born in Norfolk, parents born in England but both sets of grandparents were born in India. I'm brown. I've always called myself British and not English. DH says I've bought into the racism. And there needs to be a culture shift in seeing people who are non-white as English. And for example, brown people in Scotland call themselves Scottish and not British. And for how many more generations will my descendents call themselves British and not English.

We have a baby DC and I would have also described her as British and not English. He said we should raise her to say she is English. But I feel like that isn't right. AIBU?

Its nice to see someone be prod to be English.
Seems everyone I meet is desperate to be anything but English

People who's grandparents are Pakistani call themselves Pakistani
4th generation Italians still calling themselves Italian
Irish surname and visited Dublin. That makes me Irish
Friend's cousin's dog is a highland terrier, that makes me Scottish.

So from Northern Ireland then

British Nationality like yourself.

Regional identity is Northern Irish, yes, like yours is Scottish. But definitely never Irish for me. 👍

I think English is an ethnicity, white with several generations of births in England. English ethnicity is a real thing and it's wrong to erase it or render it meaningless by overstretching its meaning just as I would say about any other ethnicity losing its meaning.

If your parents are Indian, you would have had strong Indian cultural influence at home so your culture is unlikely to have been totally English. Indian British, born in England is how I would describe your family.

I wouldn't describe an English white family living in India and their children born in India as Indians alone, the children might be English Indian if their nationality is Indian and they have Indian cultural ties.
The Scottish thing is different because thats more about separation of tge nations and to emphasize independence. Indian Scottish is a political statement.

What an extremely narrow worldview.

On the contrary, it's not. I have had to deal with questions over identity and nationality all my life, so know the ins and outs.

The trump card is the constitutional position. Its how Governments chiefly process their millions of citizens. One nationality and one regional identity.

It's not a problematic concept. It tends to be those who've never really had to deal with these issues more seriously who struggle with this concept.

As I said, the formal designation trumps any informal one. Hence, the chagrin of Irish Republicans to find they're still automatically British citizens unless they renounce it formally themselves. 🙈

Shows you don't really have much of an argument in a one liner. Thought you weren't arguing any more too?! 🙈🤷‍♂️

I'm white English I guess although I always put British but I don't know why. My eldest was born in Scotland but we moved when they were two. They like to claim they are Scottish but I've always said but not really because you didn't grow up there. Perhaps I should let them claim Scottish British maybe?

Firstly plenty of people don't have only one national identity and one regional identity (I don't). That was part of the original poster's point and question!

Secondly, identity is about much more than the constitutional position.

I'm willing to engage in good faith but you're now just being patronising, sarcastic, and undermining your own sarcasm with your use of emojis.

No worries @TomeTome We all make mistakes

HTH

I've also said British (as a 30 year old white British born woman), saying English sounds odd...but then the Scottish always say Scottish so recently I think, sod it, I'm English!!!

British and English are not necessarily races/ethnicities. You are both British and English by nationality, but you are ethnically Indian (from what I understand.)
For example, I’m Scottish and British (British passport holder/born in Scotland). However, my ethnic heritage is Scottish, Irish & Southern African. I describe myself as mixed-race (Dad is brown), Scottish.
Surely your husband can understand the difference?

My takeaway from this is the whole English Vs British thing is absolutely nothing to do with your racial background and is entirely caught up in a classic British / English / UKish fudge! Most brits don't know what the different terms mean anyway, unless there are local separatist tensions, so perhaps you and your husband can go easy on each other.

FWIW I always think of a hierarchy:
England, Wales Scotland and NI are countries inside the conglomerate country called the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
The UK is often shortened to Britain. We used to have GB stuck on our cars to drive abroad, but that got corrected to UK a few years back. Our ISO code is still GB though....
The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. title seems to exclude a bunch of islands that are in the UK sovereign country.

The British Isles includes bits that are not part of the UK (Isle of Man, arguably the channel isles, certainly Ireland).

The UK has various associated territories like Gibralter, and Falklands. I can't remember if they count as being UK citizens, but are termed British Overseas territories.

Isle of Man and Channel islands can be called part of the British Isles, but are not part of the UK, but are known as British Crown dependencies.

I think Great Britain is a geographical term than refers to the land mass of England, Scotland and Wales but excludes any islands (e.g. the Isle of White). So take those GB stickers off your (old) cars!

Looking for our country in a website list is like going fishing. What letter is it under: U? G? B? E? (I've never found a list with the preceding "The" but there must be one out there somewhere to confuse things)

Wikipedia has pages devoted to this stuff.

I both love and hate the confusing terms!

English is an ethnicity, British is a nationality. My DH's cousin was born in India to English parents, she's English. I'd say your husband is British-Indian having been born to Indian parents in Britain and you are also British-Indian, if one of your sets of grandparents was English, you'd be half English. You haven't bought into any racism as it's not racist to speak about ethnicity, or at very least it shouldn't be.

I always say I'm English and when filling in forms if it says White British I tick that but write English at the side. Proud to be English and why not!

That’s because India doesn’t accept dual nationality and if you meet the criteria for citizenship you have to denounce your other nationality to gain that one so nobody would do that. Whereas if India allowed it she would be Indian too and if she was born in Pakistan and spoke the languages there we would accept her as Pakistani

Not really. But I’m sure it sounded very clever in your head.

Am I right to identify and feel both English and Nigerian?

I was born in London to Nigerian Parents

I was raised in London till age 13. Had a bit of childhood development in Nigeria for 2-3 years

I then spent my teenage and a little of adulthood in Nigeria.

I came back to England at age 21 and have lived here for almost 7 years.

No it doesn't! British means you are born in Britain!

You're both British, not English.

No you can be British if your parents were and you were born overseas, but English implies born in England.

So does this mean people who were not born in the USA but lived their whole lives can never be American?

No idea, I’m not American. Don’t you opt in if born elsewhere and then have to pay tax on your income wherever you live??

All is irrelevant. Op’s DH is a Londerner 🤣

LOL - yup. But in the past most poor people didn't move around much. They tended to marry someone from the same village or very nearby. So there was inbreeding.
Ancestry places a big chunk of my DNA in the county where William's mate settled and the villages where I and most of my ancestors hail from are within 10 miles of where he built his castle. I reckon I've had a dose of his genes from more than one forebear.

You think you have to be white to call yourself English???? Of course not. If your husband was born in England, has grown up here and feels English then of course he is English.