British or English?

[moijejoue]

DH is born in London. Both his parents were born in India They're all brown. I would have described DH as British Indian. DH says he isn't Indian, can't speak the language, has never been and doesn't know anything about it and is English.

My background is that I was born in Norfolk, parents born in England but both sets of grandparents were born in India. I'm brown. I've always called myself British and not English. DH says I've bought into the racism. And there needs to be a culture shift in seeing people who are non-white as English. And for example, brown people in Scotland call themselves Scottish and not British. And for how many more generations will my descendents call themselves British and not English.

We have a baby DC and I would have also described her as British and not English. He said we should raise her to say she is English. But I feel like that isn't right. AIBU?

No, it doesn't.

I can't see any crossing out but it will be because you are using two hyphens -- rather than one -. Putting double hyphens round a word or phrase puts a strike through the text.

To clarify, English people born before 83 are automatically British, those after have to fit other criteria.

No it doesn't. I'm British and English, I was born in England.

@moijejoue I'm the same. Ethnic minority tho my family have been in England for 3 generations. I would never describe myself as English but describe myself as British. I also think of English people as white, Anglo-Saxon descendents. But maybe your DP is right and I am perpetuating the idea that you have to be "indigenous" to be English! He's made me think and I may change how I describe myself!!

I am white and ancestors are English as far as records go back and I refer to myself as British. My husband has same background and also refers to himself as British. We are obviously also English but just don't use that term for some reason. To be honest I thought this was the norm as I don't think I can remember any friends or family using English over British when asked.

Both descriptions are correct. I am white, I tend to describe myself as British rather than English, although I am from England.

As with everything, if a Welsh/Scottish person said this, it wouldn't be a problem. And as the poster directly under this post actually said that, is there a reason why you chose to call this one out. Double standards as always against the English...

No the number is FAR smaller due to humans being massively inbred. World population wasn’t close to a billion a thousand years ago.

DM - Asian born but British citizen- would agree with you @moijejoue . I would say if you're born in England, you can choose what to describe yourself as.

My DF is half English and half Northern Irish and I wasn't born in the UK, but would probably describe myself English. Most of my education has been in England so I do feel more English than anything else. It's complicated.

No, you're wrong once again. 🤦‍♂️

This is about people born outside the United Kingdom, i.e. outside England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. And who have a British parent.

It is NOT about "English people" per se born anywhere within the UK's borders as people born in the UK are automatically designated as British as Irish Republicans in Northern Ireland found to their chagrin.

Link: https://www.gov.uk/apply-citizenship-british-parent/born-between-1983-and-2006

I was born in England so am English. Seems that some think this is objectionable, but no-one objects to others saying they are Scottish, Welsh or Irish. Similar to Christianity being fair game but other religions not ...

I was born in London but emigrated to Australia at a few weeks old with my (Aussie) mother. I was educated there and then returned to live in the UK in my early 20s. I consider my self British and ex-pat Aussie, but never English, even though I was born in England. For me to feel English I think I would have needed to have grown up in England.

@Sdpbody Nonsense. I say I'm Scottish because I'm born and raised in Scotland. I also consider myself British. If I heard a Scottish or Welsh person saying they called themselves Scottish or Welsh so no one thought they were English I'd think they were a nationalist, small minded twat. I wasn't particularly calling out Anti-Scots - I made a jokey comment which obviously lists its tone in writing. But since you've pulled me up on it, I think anyone with that attitude is rude and a bit of a wally, irrespective of their nationality.

I’m white, born and live in England and my DNA test says I’m something ridiculous like 80% from Northern England.

I say I live in England but I am British. Mostly because if I’m differentiating my nationality it’s in an international context and England isn’t externally recognised as an independent country.

Speaking within the British Isles I’d say I was English.

I think part of it is the white “gammon” English contingent I want to differentiate myself from, but part is also that England is arrogantly seen as the norm for British. The same way I don’t need to say I’m a ‘cis’ woman unless in a really specific context, British is usually enough for someone to infer that I’m from England, but if I was Scottish I might highlight that by exception.

British is usually enough for someone to infer that I’m from England, but if I was Scottish I might highlight that by exception.
This is the problem!

I roughly agree with you OP. Nationality and ethnicity are not always the same. You are both British, but also have Indian ethnicity. Surely this just adds an extra dimension ? Not having been to a country does not mean that you don’t have aspects of it, culturally. Cultural inheritance comes from family as well as place. So you have cultural references and a history, that someone with only English ancestors would not have. I think that is interesting, not somehow a bad thing. We should all feel proud of our ancestry.

I was born in South Africa but we emigrated to Scotland when I was 3, so as far as I'm concerned I'm Scottish and proud of it

My father described himself as Scottish too, even though he apparently had a slight South African accent right up until he died at 86. He'd only ever support South Africa if they were playing England - although it took until well after the end of apartheid before he would do that and become truly Scottish

I have a British passport (naturalised when I was a child) so to that extent I'm British too - as there isn't an adjective for "UKish"

I used a looooong time ago to describe myself as British first, Scottish second but don't any more as I don't want to be part of the UK

I do struggle with ethnicity questions though and it will depend on the options given: I'm not "white British" as only a tiny proportion of my ancestors were from the UK. I'm essentially a mishmash of European ethnicities, probably mostly Germanic and Nordic , so if "White European" is an option I'll use that. But I only know my heritage because someone did our complicated family tree

I don't really understand all of the comments along the lines of "you are right" or "your dh is right". There isn't a single "right" answer here - it is all about perception and interpretation.

There is a legal definition of British, so it is possible to state objectively whether someone is British or not. If someone has a British passport, or is entitled to one, then they are British. (Will leave aside the whole issue of British overseas citizenship for now, as that massively complicates the issue!)

There is no legal definition of English, as far as I'm aware, so it's open to individual interpretations and judgements.

I don't think there is a right answer for this. I was in my 30s when an old white member of my family told me you cannot be English but are British if you are black/brown. It was the first time I'd ever actually heard this so was surprised and I called it out as racist. However, since then, I have heard several black/brown friends (some born in England and some not) say that they are British and will never be English and they agree with my relative and several that would agree with your DH (and me).

I suppose we all have our beliefs and they're not dictated by skin colour or birth place but just our views on life.

I say I am English first because that's where I was born. I tick British if it's the only option and if someone questions me, I say "English/British whichever". The problem is those that say English for racist reasons and I genuinely feel have the biggest audience and ruin it.

My DH and I are both born in UK and white. I say I'm English he says he is British. I don't see it matters really. If your DH feels strongly about it I'd just go along with him.

There is a presumption by some that looking a certain ethnicity means you also carry some ethnic cultural background. You really can’t know someone’s background by the way they look.

Oh I just re read your post. Your child isn't mixed race. She is fully ethnically Indian. @moijejoue and DH are both ethnically Indian but nationality is British. My mum was born in England but her parents, grandparents, great grandparents and so on are not white or from England. If the majority of your family tree originates from India then that's your ethnicity. Ethnicity is different to Nationality.

True, but though people in Northern Ireland are not in Great Britain, they are still British. There is no other collective term for people from the UK.

It's complicated because some people in Northern Ireland identify exclusively as Irish and not British, as is their right under the Good Friday Agreement, but they get British citizenship at birth anyway.

@DownNative people born in the UK are automatically designated as British this was true until the law changed in 83. Now you do not automatically become British by being born here. So for example in 1980 if an American foreign student gave birth in the uk their child would have been British and entitled to a British passport and to live in the uk. If the same thing happened in 1985 the child would not be British. As I said upthread it is very common for British parents who work overseas to travel back to the UK to give birth purely to rubber stamp their children’s nationality.