To not forgive?

[Rattymcratty]

This may be more of a philosophical question than your usual aibu. Well it’s regarding my MIL so maybe it is your regular AIBU!

What is forgiveness? What does forgiveness look like? Does everyone deserve it?

Essentially MIL wants me to ‘forgive and forget’ to move on with family life. She’s constantly mentioning to DH that I’m stubborn, need to have forgiveness, soften up, need to build a bridge, ‘let us put it all behind us’ and ‘forgive and forget’. She really wronged us both, she feels she did nothing wrong, DH went NC for 6 months and I haven’t ‘came around’.

She’s asked DH what she can say/do for me to forgive her which to me defeats the object of wanting forgiveness. She’s brought me flowers and tried to break the ice but I honestly want nothing to do with her. She’s never offered an apology, not reflected that she did any wrong doing and at best only tried to justify her actions.

How can I forgive when she has zero remorse nor took any accountability for what she has done?

It’s not her job but she can just keep out of it and not be a barrier to it.

I have been in a VERY similar position to you OP, except in my case my DP chose MIL and we also broke up. It was the worst time of my life and you have all my sympathy.

I will never forgive her. She was not only not apologetic, she took pride in splitting us up. I can't forgive that.

Surely even God only forgives those who truly repent?

Having said that... Your MIL has offered flowers etc, is she trying to make it up but without knowing what you really need? Is it worth your DH telling her straight that what you need is for her to really reflect and acknowledge what she did wrong? Maybe she really doesn't know/thinks she's already done it?

This. Sorry to hear this and thinking of you x

I think it's important to have a proper discussion about what happened and tell her exactly what you feel about it.

@aloris

I think people sometimes use "forgive and forget" as a platitude to get away with treating others badly and never having to face any consequences for doing so. Even if you are basing your concept of forgiveness on the bible, it doesn't say "forgive and forget." It says to forgive 70 X 7 times, but the expectation is that the person will actually apologize and turn their effort towards doing better next time, not that they just steamroll over you again and again, and get mad at you if you don't let them.
^^^^
Perfectly put.

I would neither forget, nor forgive, and to be frank I’m shocked and appalled that your DH is back in contact with them. I would have a serious talk with him and tell him that if it is his expectation that, at any point in the future, you reconcile with them, then it’s best to call it quits now as this won’t work moving forward, and particularly if children are ever involved.

No one has to forgive.

@Rattymcratty theres a really interesting podcast on the We can do hard things podcast by Glennon Doyle called How to put wrong things right. I recommend you listen to it.

It really helped me understand how in order to be sorry you put the work in first.

Sorry to hear your MIL broke you up, but you probably dodged a bullet there. If her son was so enmeshed in her toxic behaviour it would have carried on throughout your marriage and impacted on any children you might have had.

This, with jingle bells on. Fucking hell.

Some people are suggesting that you insist your husband doesn’t contact his mother again.

I think if you did that, you would be behaving nearly as badly as her. Forcing the poor man to choose.

You simply need to be clear about in what ways you personally don’t want to be impacted by her.

And sometimes people have to choose.

He is chosing to make OP suffer and doesn't seem to give AF.

I told my husband I couldn't live a life with his mother in it. And if that meant walking away from him then that's what I was more than happy to do at that point.

We have one life. It's to short and precious to live it putting up with such colossal twats.

From what you have written I wouldn't have anything further to do with her.

Your husband can have whatever relationship he wants but she would never enter my home and I would never set foot in hers.

You were very brave/ naive to go ahead marrying into such an utterly toxic dynamic.

She sounds truly ugly.

I wouldn't be making ANY effort to forgive and forget.

Why is your husband back involved with people whom have caused such grief in your lives?

Don't rush into having children with him.

Such toxic people sour the experience of children so much.

Do not be bullied to forgive such truly dreadful people.

Your family must be absolutely horrified.

Yes, if he doesn’t care then that makes a massive difference.

This is exactly what I was thinking. You may or may not have children in the future, but I wouldn't want any of that nightmare around them.

Nope, I wouldn't be forgiving that, and I'd be making it very clear to my husband that I'd have nothing to do with MIL after that.

And that was the right choice for you and luckily it sounds as if your DH chose you over his mother.

But the OP can decide that she will have absolutely NO relationship with her MiL whilst telling her DH that he can have whatever relationship he chooses, provided that the relationship does not impact her.

By that I mean that he keeps anything she says absolutely to himself and that he remembers that nothing gets planned around his mother (holidays, trips, etc). If he can't agree and keep to that, then I agree, the marriage would be over.

Children would be a difficult issue. If together, OP might be able to control/limit the time around MiL. If they divorce, she has absolutely no control over that.

Mumsnet is such a wonderful community of such wise women.

MIL kicked off at DH again yesterday about my lack of ‘forgiveness’ (I am completely NC with them). Apparently if I loved DH I’d make it right with them and she asked if I had any psychological problems as my behaviour isn’t normal. Apparently everyone is able to forgive, and people even forgive murderers. Of course they’re more upset how the wedding ended up but willing to work past it.

I missed out in my previous post that we have had DD amongst all this yes I was pregnant when they made DH choose between me or them. She wants more contact with DD (on average she sees DD every 6 weeks or so).

She’s making DH life a misery. Sometimes I think of just ‘getting over it’ just as I’m so bloody tired of her making DH a misery for me having nought to do with her but then I read this thread. Then I realise that she’s made her bed, and just because her bed is extremely uncomfortable doesn’t mean I have to make it better.

I've only read your posts OP, but honestly I couldn't forgive someone like that.

To say that to her own son and also alienate him from his siblings because she wanted to basically plan his wedding is pathetic, she can't love her children if she's willing to do that.

I would stay NC and honestly I'm not sure I would want my child(ren) in her company.

This issue is not of your making, it is not for you to resolve.

Why is your DH still having contact? I get that they’re his parents but their behaviour proves them unworthy of his commitment to them. I certainly wouldn’t be happy with them having any contact with my children based on their emotionally abusive behaviour and derogatory comments about you.

If your DH chooses to subject himself to his mother's rants about you that's his choice. But I would tell him that from now on he keeps it to himself. If he started with "My mother said...." I'd look him straight in the eye and say "I don't want to hear a single word she said". And I'd shut down any conversation firmly. If need be, I'd walk away into another room. Rinse and repeat.

She's using your DH as a flying monkey. And he's allowing her to abuse you through him. Don't think for a second that she doesn't know exactly what she's doing and the effect it has on you. And on him.

Your DH is in serious need of counseling.

Just read your update.
Once again she is putting the blame on your reaction, rather than the multiple actions of hers that caused your reaction. The fact she is trying to say you have psychological problems screams that she’s a massive narcissist. That’s what they do - double down and accuse you of mental health problems.
If she knew how to love she would respect your decision and stop putting pressure on your DH to force you to tolerate her.
Seeing your baby every 6 weeks is more than enough, and I think she is extremely lucky to be getting that. In your shoes I wouldn’t let her near your baby because as soon as your child is old enough to understand your MIL will likely start dripping poison into their ear about you. I know this from bitter experience. All done in that annoyingly passive aggressive way of ‘isn’t mummy mean not letting you sleep at my house’, ‘isn’t mummy mean for not letting you eat the whole of that giant bar of chocolate in one go before bed’. Be warned.

Would your DH consider some counselling? He really needs it and it should be priority for the sake of your family.

I’d shut down any relaying of info by your DH, as soon as he starts with “mum said…” tell him to stop, you don’t want to hear it.

Hell would freeze over before my child would be in that woman’s company, as a PP said, it won’t be long before MIL starts with “oh isn’t nasty mummy mean because x y z”.

The way I see it you’re ultimately getting the worst of both worlds at the moment. You didn’t get the wedding you wanted. And your husbands relationship with his mum and dad are being affected anyway

Obviously I’m not saying you should forgive and forget. But reflect on what you and your husband want. You don’t get to choose your parents and can’t necessarily change their behaviour. But perhaps you can accept they’re manipulative and manage the situation better… knowing he wants them in his life and that here not going to live forever. And obviously with siblings to being caught in the cross hairs.

As you say, she made her bed, she lies in it

I don’t blame you for going NC and I certainly wouldn’t be contemplating having anything to do with them

i would simply write a very factual letter, detailing what you said here, ie her interfering and causing issues in planning the wedding, that you were paying for, she made dh chose which led to the cancellation of the wedding you wanted, and you were pregnant at the time. That at no point has she made any effort to apologise for her atrocious behaviour, and it’s to late now, she has shown her true colours and you want nothing to do with someone like her, explain how she made you feel that your dh was incredibly upset etc. I would finish it that she made her beds etc etc. If it’s in black and white she can’t dispute it

then leave it to your dh to decide if and when he wants contact and if that includes your child

'If he started with "My mother said...." I'd look him straight in the eye and say "I don't want to hear a single word she said". And I'd shut down any conversation firmly. If need be, I'd walk away into another room. Rinse and repeat.

She's using your DH as a flying monkey.'

Absolutely spot on, and very good advice

OP, your DH is still completely enmeshed in this toxic dynamic with his mother. You can't always just pull yourself out of it without professional support. You do need to put your foot down though and make it clear that you're not listening to any more of her poison