To not forgive?

[Rattymcratty]

This may be more of a philosophical question than your usual aibu. Well it’s regarding my MIL so maybe it is your regular AIBU!

What is forgiveness? What does forgiveness look like? Does everyone deserve it?

Essentially MIL wants me to ‘forgive and forget’ to move on with family life. She’s constantly mentioning to DH that I’m stubborn, need to have forgiveness, soften up, need to build a bridge, ‘let us put it all behind us’ and ‘forgive and forget’. She really wronged us both, she feels she did nothing wrong, DH went NC for 6 months and I haven’t ‘came around’.

She’s asked DH what she can say/do for me to forgive her which to me defeats the object of wanting forgiveness. She’s brought me flowers and tried to break the ice but I honestly want nothing to do with her. She’s never offered an apology, not reflected that she did any wrong doing and at best only tried to justify her actions.

How can I forgive when she has zero remorse nor took any accountability for what she has done?

Goodness - what a horrible series of events for you and dh. No - she can fuck right off. I went no contact with a sibling and it’s been for the best. Even if she apologises the level of control she wanted to exert is batshit crazy so you wouldn’t wNt to expose yourself and dh to that again and until she understands and is remorseful for her actions, then she is more than likely to go off the deep end again.

She remembered fondly planning her wedding with her mum
She had her own wedding, so being U right there tbh
Did/do you have your own Mum OP?

and as she had no DD that she should have been able to plan our wedding.
Did she impose like this with your BIL or are they still single?

She wasn’t happy with just been included in wedding preparations but actually wanted to plan the wedding.
God, I'd have said I had a wedding planner hired and back off.

Every time we made a decision I.E. what kind of cake we wanted she’d fly off the handle that it wasn’t the cake she thought we should have etc. This went on for a good year and it was seriously unhinged.
Completely agree, especially as you were footing the bill. Total control freakery on her part.

DH tried to gently explain that while we do listen to her opinions fundamentally it is our day and we do make the final decisions.
Perfectly reasonable and needed to be said.

All hell broke loose, FIL got involved and we were told to either make it ‘right’ with MIL or they were done with us.
Toxic. Emotional blackmail. FIL is an enabler/flying monkey doing her bidding.

DH was inconsolable for days at the idea of being disowned and finally he was told to choose either me or them.
Outrageous. He should have gone NC there and then. Needs counselling. He is still enmeshed.

They then told DH brothers to choose between us or them, and forbade them to come to the wedding.
How old are his brothers? How did they respond?
This is bullying behaviour from a narc.

We were about to pay the remaining balance on the venue/meal but the whole day just felt ruined.
Understandable.

I listened to DH beg to not be disowned, that he still loved his parents but they were cold.
He should have called their bluff and took them at their word.
Very dysfunctional. Matriarch insisting on getting their way and all scared of/placating/enabling her. Is there any cultural issue at play?

DH has told MIL I’m upset due to me not having the wedding we deserved.
It's not only that though, is it? It's the complete contempt they have for their own son, the lack of respect shown to you, the control and domineering attitude (which will extend to any grandchildren, mark my words) and the infantilisation of you both, when you were grown, paying adults.

MIL thinks it was our choice to pull the plug (well, it was but our hand was forced by them) and recently she laughed that ''Well, of course we would have come.'' I’m also think there should be some remorse on that DH was told to choose between us.
No, she sulked, spat out her dummy, made ultimatums and "won" through blackmail. No sign of remorse or acknowledgement/owning her toxic behaviour.

We ended up having a small registry wedding in the summer, no wedding party, no wedding reception just a quick ‘I do’ and a little lunch.
On your own or with just witnesses or did BIL/PIL attend? Or did you do the equivalent of eloping?

Friends are the family you choose for yourselves OP.
I'd be highly tempted on your anniversary/an anniversary in the future to renew your vows (after COL crisis eases obvs) and just invite who you want and have the ceremony and celebration you dreamed of.

You also have a DH problem if not on the same page. What made him cave after half a year?

@Rattymcratty

What is forgiveness? What does forgiveness look like? Does everyone deserve it?

What is forgiveness? I think it means different thing to different people, especially when it comes to which side of the 'forgiveness' they're on!

For me, forgiveness is being able to 'let go' within myself of whatever the issue is and the emotions involved ie resentment, pain, anger, fear, sorrow. That is my internal forgiveness and is between me and my emotional well being. It has nothing to do with the person who wronged/hurt me.

What does forgiveness look like? If the person wishes to extend the 'internal' forgiveness to the person who wronged them then I suppose it would look like some type of 'normalization' of the relationship between the two people.

Does everyone deserve forgiveness? Hell, no. But again, there is forgiveness and there is 'forgiveness'. Some victims feel they will never completely unless they let go the negative feelings. They forgive the perpetrator for their own emotional healing. I think we see this most often in cases of criminal behaviours where the victim 'forgives' the perp so that the victim can move on in their lives.

What forgiveness isn't is a blanket 'Oh it's OK that you wronged me/disrupted my life/hurt me deeply'. And it certainly isn't at the behest of the 'wrongdoer'. It cannot be demanded or expected, especially if there is no acknowledgement or remorse. And there is no law that says we must forgive simply because someone asks us to.

And finally, even if we do choose (and it is our choice) to forgive the 'wrongdoer' that certainly doesn't mean that that person has a right to be admitted back into our lives again. We can say "Yes, I can forgive you for XXX, but I still choose to keep my distance from you (or) exclude you from my life". And we need give them no explanation for that decision. They know what they did.

Could I forgive your MiL for the wedding debacle? I probably could, because to me it's the marriage not the wedding that is important. I am not criticizing you for feeling differently. BUT, whether or not I'd choose to admit my MiL back into my life is another thing. And I'd say no, I wouldn't. Not because of the wedding debacle, but because she (and FiL) are controlling and interfering. I wouldn't have anyone in my life who felt they had the right to control me AND to 'punish' me if I didn't do what they said.

Nope, I would no way be able to forgive that, but (not victim blaming!) your Dh ought to have told her to fuck right off from the start and meant it. He sounds like he’s in the FOG and has now after a mere 6 months gone back on his anger and disappointment to be back in touch with her?

Have a huge party for a significant wedding anniversary, as a sort of wedding reception replacement, and don't invite them but make sure they know all about it.

Nope. I wouldn’t forgive all that.

To me, forgiveness is about acceptance. Accepting what happened and letting it go so it no longer has any power over my thoughts and feelings. It is not something I do for others. It is for me. And it does not mean that the people who have wronged me are allowed back into my life. Your MIL behaved atrociously. It is absolutely fine for you to accept that, yet not want her in your life. It is less about what she did and more about what she is. She isn't someone I would want in my life either.

Oh wow I’m not sure I could forgive that either sounds horrible and she sounds toxic

I think it would be good if you could let go of any anger, if you can, for your sake. But, I’d really struggle to do that in this situation.

As for what she wants - I don’t think that should take up any time or energy for you to be honest. She isn’t remorseful and is likely to do similar in the future.

I guess your DH might want some kind of relationship with his parents. That’s up to him.

But you are both totally reasonable to never see them again.

I second having a renewal with all of the loveliest people in your life. Just those that make you feel good. Don’t sink to rubbing their noses in it though, just live your life regardless of their views.

I have to say OP that I felt angry on your behalf reading your account of what happened.

I wouldn't forgive them either. Nasty and toxic. I hope your husband is fully backing you here because I would want nothing to do with her. What if you have children? Is she going to insult you for naming your own child? Disown you for breastfeeding instead of formula? Insult you for not giving her equal say in your parenting? Can you imagine a child in that toxic dynamic.

Your husband can have a relationship with them if he chooses, but you and any future children won't.

She sounds vile. I wouldn't forgive or forget, not one bit. She's feeling guilty she has ruined her sons wedding, she doesn't give a hoot about you. She wants you to fall in line and behave.

Tell DH exactly what you said in your last two paragraphs, She’s never taken responsibility for what she did , never fully apologised or shown remorse.
Until she does this how can you ‘forgive her and move on’. The ball is in her court.

This, exactly this. My guess is that she is just starting to realise that, if you are keeping your distance from her, if and when you have children, she will miss out.

Only you know and only time will tell if you can ever forgive what she did but she has shown her colours and I would be wary especially around any future children.

I would never, ever forgive her for that. Ever. I'd tell her to fuck right off and then fuck off further.

I could probably forgive because I wouldn’t let them occupy real estate in my head. However,I would never forget and have at best a low contact relationship.

Sorry you went through that.

"DH was inconsolable for days at the idea of being disowned and finally he was told to choose either me or them."

"I listened to DH beg to not be disowned, that he still loved his parents but they were cold. I had to comfort him in the foetus position for hours."

I feel upset just reading this. Your poor poor husband. How could they treat their own child like this? 😥

No. just no. I would be telling them after the way they treated your darling husband, their own son, and ruining your wedding, there is no forgiving or coming back from that.

I'm so sorry you and DH didn't get the wedding you deserved.

What an utter bitch. I'd never forgive her. I'd be NC forever. FUCK HER.

Forgiveness and reconciliation are two completely different things.

For your MIL, I’d choose neither.

“Your actions caused irreparable harm. It’ll never be okay, remembering the damage you chose to do.”

At a guess, I’d say either you’re pregnant or may plan to be, or MIL is hoping you will be, and she’s realized that if she can’t get you back under control, she won’t have open access to grandchildren so she can relive her motherhood.

She's a total nut job. you and your husband should go full no contact

If you try and have forgiveness as a standard way to live your life, it makes life much easier. It doesn't mean you have to have the person around all the time necessarily- just that basic attitude.

Forgiveness helps interpersonally, but also feels better than getting inwardly angry over the same things over and over again.

For me, there are three separate but interconnected issues here.

One is the emotional and mental energy this situation is costing you. In one sense, forgiveness means no longer dwelling it in your own heart and mind. Letting it go, if you like. Not easy to do - part of us demands to know why she could behave like that, wonders if it was really all her, or maybe some little part of it was us being in the wrong. But this is a waste of energy.

The second is her understanding and remorse - of which there is precisely zero. If there was at least some acknowledgment of bad behaviour on her part and the hurt it caused, then you have a basis from which to move forward. But there doesn’t seem to be any in this case. A bunch of flowers means nothing, if not accompanied by some evidence of self-awareness.

The third is what kind of relationship you could have with her, if you decided to have one at all. She attempted to control your wedding, down to the kind of cake you had - and when you wouldn’t give in to her demands, employed the most horrendous emotional blackmail on her own children. And she doesn’t see she did anything wrong. So if you agree to have contact, how long do you thing it will before she is trying to control your house, hobbies, lifestyle….. pregnancy, birth, parenting.

I am very sorry for you, and your poor DH. Love him, OP, and support him. It does seem that he is on the same page as you in that he didn’t want his mother controlling your wedding either. At the same time, he is their son, and that bond is hard to break.

I suggest that your DH would benefit from therapy to help him understand the dysfunctional nature of his family of origin. That, and your love, will be healing for him. You don’t have to have contact with his parents. He can, if he wants to, don’t try to stop him. But be prepared for them to try to manipulate him, and you through him.

I heard a talk once by a Catholic priest, who talked about forgiveness. A key point he made that I'd never heard before, is that forgiveness does not mean accepting that what was done to you was ok. It also does not mean that you have to put yourself into a position where the other person can hurt you again. It mainly means you give up the idea of getting revenge on the person, if I understood the priest correctly. But creating boundaries so the person does not get a repeat opportunity to treat you badly, is not the same thing as getting revenge. You don't have to feel guilty about creating boundaries, if that is what you need to be able to move forward with peace.

I think people sometimes use "forgive and forget" as a platitude to get away with treating others badly and never having to face any consequences for doing so. Even if you are basing your concept of forgiveness on the bible, it doesn't say "forgive and forget." It says to forgive 70 X 7 times, but the expectation is that the person will actually apologize and turn their effort towards doing better next time, not that they just steamroll over you again and again, and get mad at you if you don't let them.

I applaud you, very well analysed! I wish I'd done as you suggest to my fucking MIL and in-laws in general!

I listened to DH beg to not be disowned, that he still loved his parents but they were cold. I had to comfort him in the foetus position for hours.

I could never forgive someone for this. I mean maybe if they were very deeply sorry and repentant, eventually, but basically no.

Yeah. Wrecking your wedding might be forgivable, but what she did to the man you love is horrible.