To ask how you’d feel if a friend was with a married man

[EalingLucy]

I’ve got a friend who has recently been talking a lot to a married man (well actually for quite a few months, they met through a hobby group and have been exchanging daily messages for some time). I think she would probably let things go further if he wanted to, and it seems like he might soon.

I only found this out recently — she let slip in a kind of ‘isn’t this exciting’ way with a couple of friends - and one of the friends instantly showed shock / disapproval, whereas I felt that way inwardly but also didn’t want to assume anything as at that point it could have been innocent.

I’ve since realised it’s not innocent, in that she told me today they are flirting. It’s none of my business, but also she likes to talk about it. She said she felt comfy talking to me vs the other person as I’m less judgey / realise life isn’t simple, before I then said he should be concentrating on fixing his relationship with his wife if there is an issue etc and that he needs to put his kids and marriage first. I think her attitude was that she’s not morally in the wrong as it’s his choice, and she’s not responsible for the consequences.

I didn’t want to make her feel judged but I do think she probs slightly felt it. I understand relationships are complex, and she’s not too long out of a 13 year marriage, but is it really that common to have affairs?

I feel like it’s morally wrong to encourage it but also maybe people think this is holier than thou and I should just let her live her life without judgement? I don’t know.

shes a really kind, lovely person otherwise so I’m not going to judge her whole character on this. I think she’s quite lonely, but she is playing with fire. And it’s a shared hobby group I am a part of, so really don’t want this messing the dynamic.

in this situation, would you reserve judgement, secretly judge, or outright tell the person you think it’s not ok? Interested in others’ opinions.

I don't think think the other women are 'worse' than the cheating man. I think they are both equally bad. Him for being a cheating, home wrecking bastard and her for being a home wrecking bitch. They are both immoral and should feel equal shame.

I have absolutely no idea what you are going on about here. I was responding to a poster who said no-one is trapped in a relationship. The conversation had moved on. Sorry if you never kept up.

If he's not any more responsible for his own home than she is, marriage is meaningless.

A good point, well made.

I’ve had this before. We weren’t especially close friends but I found it extremely jarring that she thought it was fine - saying what’s the harm if he takes me out for dinner etc. I was completely blunt that the harm is being part of an exceptionally painful situation that could ruin a person’s marriage and possibly their life, and their children’s. Yes, the man is responsible for the affair, but when someone has a family I can’t understand how you could find it lighthearted fun to be part of potentially destroying that. I didn’t stop speaking to her but I was totally honest that I didn’t agree with the behaviour and if she was going to talk to me about it, I would be honest about my view on it. It definitely
made me think differently of her as it did seem devoid of empathy. She hadn’t fallen for this man, she’d slept with him after a night out, found out afterward he was married and thought it was fine that carry on. It’s not judgemental to disagree with someone’s behaviour where it has the potential to cause harm.

I mean, suppose I have an employee whose job is not to let anyone into the stationery cupboard. It's a major, crucial, key part of his job. Don't let anyone into the cupboard. And he goes and finds some random who doesn't work there and lets them into the cupboard.

Now I can go at the random all day and say how amoral and shameful and horrible they are, and maybe it's true, but isn't it also just completely beside the point? If I knew nobody would ever go into the cupboard, I wouldn't need to hire someone to keep people out.

And whilst I'm going on about the random who talked their way into it, I've still got an employee whose job it is to guard the cupboard and doesn't do it. Why would my response be to leave him in charge and just go out and yell at everyone who passes that they're not allowed in the cupboard?

Or to complain because the world contains people who would go into the cupboard? I knew it did. That's why I hired someone to keep them out!

And before someone starts changing the analogy to bank robbery, murder or sexual assault...

That's a false equivalence because consensual adult sex isn't a crime and you are not answerable to any outside authority for it. It's just a breach of sexual ethics when someone breaks a private, personal contract by doing it.

Which is why the employment contract analogy works. Don't want to abide by it, don't work there. Work there, and it becomes your responsibility.

My daughter (early twenties) is doing this. She knows how much I disapprove and what I think of the situation. I often worry what did I do wrong with parenting her that she is doing this. I’m so disappointed

Regardless whether male or female, the responsibility lies with the person in a relationship to remain faithful. If both are in relationships, then both are answerable to their own partners only.

I'm sorry raspberry. That's hard.

Absolutely agree with PPs that if it were not her, then he would be trying it on with someone else.

I would point out to her that although it might be exciting for he to feel that she is attractive, possibly more attractive than his existing partner, that nothing good is ever going to come of getting involved.

Yes, it might be exciting at the beginning but she is already realising that she can't really talk about this relationship in public exactly because he is already married. Don't let her talk to you about it. Remind her that the best she can hope for is that he breaks up his marriage for her, thus creating a vacancy for another mistress.

Not such an exciting prospect, is it.

Thats what would put me off having an affairs with a married man. Pretty persuasive.

Whilst that's true there's something questionable about someone's character who knows someone is married and wants to pursue an affair also imo. Plenty of single men out there, its different if two people fall in love and the one married splits with their partner before it escalates; but even though life isn't black and white seems fine to judge someone making shitty decisions.

Remind her that the best she can hope for is that he breaks up his marriage for her, thus creating a vacancy for another mistress.

This is glib misogynistic crap that was first spouted by a known sexist and really needs to die. It's also telling that for all the vitriol that gets aimed at OW and how loose and cheap they must be, nobody ever seems to think that she'll be the one to cheat again and break his heart.

I would think extremely badly of a friend who was doing this and might consider backing off for a bit. Technically, he’s ‘more’ in the wrong as he’s the one with the wife. However, morally, she’s not exactly innocent as she could walk away at anytime.

However, morally, she’s not exactly innocent as she could walk away at anytime.

As could he, and he's got more reason to, and probably more comfort waiting for him when he's not with her.

I don't think the OW has any responsibility to the wife being cheated on but I think that the wife is still allowed to have negative feelings about OW. I don't think that is in any way misogynistic.

It is totally the man's responsibility not to cheat but I would not feel comfortable living with the knowledge that I had been involved in a situation which resulted in causing great pain to another person and also any children involved. I have been the cheated on wife and the pain it caused was almost physical at some point.

It's only human nature to hate or despise someone who has been part of a situation which has caused you tremendous pain especially if they are being all lovely and friendly to your face. Regardless of the husband's marriage vows I would certainly think less of someone who was the OW.

I know that some people obviously think that OW is totally blameless and that is their prerogative. There are many people who don't really think about how their actions are going to affect anyone other than themselves. My personal opinion is that it's pretty shitty behaviour and if a close friend did this I think I would probably look at them in a different way.

I've been there. As the texter. It's awful. And it wrecks your life. You need to let her know gently that it won't take her anywhere good. She needs to find someone single. So much pain comes. It's not judging.

Assuming she is generally of good character, I would say she is vulnerable and is not thinking clearly.

I would warn her but I would not cut contact.

Thanks all, there are so many comments here I won’t address them all but some really interesting thoughts here. For what it’s worth I don’t think she wants to have a full-on affair with him; I think she frankly wants a shag and is finding the dating scene difficult — he seems an easier prospect (ridiculous I know). Her attitude is ‘his relationship is his business’.

she’s making a lot of counterproductive decisions on who she pursues in general, and I make sure to try and support her to make different ones without being too harsh about it as I know she’d baulk / not listen. She is also working with a therapist (not sure what they’ve said about the married man), and acknowledging she has work to do (altho I don’t think she sees this as part of that pattern yet!)

since I messaged things have taken a turn - the married man has started making it clear he’s not now interested. I don’t know what’s happened (neither does she) but I’m glad it’s dying a death.

She is a relatively new friend, and I think she’s great on lots of fronts, but I am notice slight self-obsession and I am concerned she would have felt no guilt about shagging a married man. Yesterday I said something which indicated strong disapproval of the situation, and him, and I said it’s not worth talking about it anymore as he’s an idiot, which she agreed with. I have also said other things that indicate I think this is a stupid idea, which she obvs feels defensive about and which probs prompted my original message, as I could feel her getting prickly. So from now on I’m going to try and steer convos away from her personal life if it’s about counterproductive things (there is also a very ill-advised obsession with a person with a coke addiction).

This message thread has helped me feel better about the other friend I let go because of her lack of integrity, so thank you. Over our twenty year friendship this other friend cheated on her boyfriend, spied on the next one (!), had sex with two attached people, and claimed bankruptcy so she could get all of her debts from luxury holidays written off. She also just clearly had bad self esteem issues and would say catty comments whenever I was dating someone, and I just got tired of it. It was just hard letting her go as I’ve known her for 20 years and in many ways she is sweet, interesting and kind. And I think it has taken me a while to learn to have boundaries and to listen to my gut. I have actually let three friends go in the past few years because of this, which I mostly think is a good decision but on my low days I wonder whether I did the right thing / am I being too harsh / miss their company. So I guess this situation is bringing all that up, because it’s very rare to meet someone that is 100% good in all they do and where the line is can be hard to draw.

But his wife is in a relationship/marriage with him and (thinks)she knows their situation and lives.

Why is it ok for her to be mistreated by her h and ops friend, but it wouldn't be for your h and an OW to do so?

Do you really have no idea how contradictory and hypocritical you sound.

because consensual adult sex isn't a crime

Sex between a cheating partner/spouse and their partner/spouse is not consensual. There is no informed consent.

Her attitude is ‘his relationship is his business’.

And of course she'll not have one iota of bad feeling towards the woman who knowingly fucks her partner/spouse.

Riiiight.

Since I messaged things have taken a turn - the married man has started making it clear he’s not now interested. I don’t know what’s happened (neither does she) but I’m glad it’s dying a death.

I thought that might happen.

I would say that it was none of my business. (I have been there BTW).

She’s a nasty bitch. I cannot stand people like that. I wouldn’t be involved with her at all. No morals and no thought for his wife and children