To ask how you’d feel if a friend was with a married man

[EalingLucy]

I’ve got a friend who has recently been talking a lot to a married man (well actually for quite a few months, they met through a hobby group and have been exchanging daily messages for some time). I think she would probably let things go further if he wanted to, and it seems like he might soon.

I only found this out recently — she let slip in a kind of ‘isn’t this exciting’ way with a couple of friends - and one of the friends instantly showed shock / disapproval, whereas I felt that way inwardly but also didn’t want to assume anything as at that point it could have been innocent.

I’ve since realised it’s not innocent, in that she told me today they are flirting. It’s none of my business, but also she likes to talk about it. She said she felt comfy talking to me vs the other person as I’m less judgey / realise life isn’t simple, before I then said he should be concentrating on fixing his relationship with his wife if there is an issue etc and that he needs to put his kids and marriage first. I think her attitude was that she’s not morally in the wrong as it’s his choice, and she’s not responsible for the consequences.

I didn’t want to make her feel judged but I do think she probs slightly felt it. I understand relationships are complex, and she’s not too long out of a 13 year marriage, but is it really that common to have affairs?

I feel like it’s morally wrong to encourage it but also maybe people think this is holier than thou and I should just let her live her life without judgement? I don’t know.

shes a really kind, lovely person otherwise so I’m not going to judge her whole character on this. I think she’s quite lonely, but she is playing with fire. And it’s a shared hobby group I am a part of, so really don’t want this messing the dynamic.

in this situation, would you reserve judgement, secretly judge, or outright tell the person you think it’s not ok? Interested in others’ opinions.

This

I'd tell her and distance myself.

I don't want friends with shit morals.

@Ilovelurchers That's not true though, Crumpet. People who lose their partner to an affair would like it to be true, but it isn't.
You are right. Life isn't fair. Life is many shades of grey. Many affair couples go on to be miles happier in their new relationship than they were. People just don't want to believe this. They come up with theories like the new couple stay together because they don't want to be proven to have made a mistake. That's very rare. Sometimes affair relationships work. Often they don't but there is no hard and fast rule

Rubbish

She's complicit.

I would ask her how she sees her future with a lying cheating scumbag and is this really the best she thinks she can get?

I've been there. It wasn't something she made a habit of and she was in a shit place. Not an excuse, but not an indelible mark of an irredeemably shit person. He's responsible for his marriage anyway. He was much worse.

I told her I didn't want to hear about it but when it all fell apart (as it was clearly going to), or if she walked away before that happened, I'd be there. My job wasn't to police him or his marriage or her sex life, it was to be a friend to her if she needed it (which included telling her this was obviously a hiding to nothing and not fantastic behaviour) and if I felt she was worth it, and despite this, she was.

I wasn't the wife so I didn't have to see it and respond as if I were. We do what's within our own remits and responsibilities.

But if you wouldn’t be ok with someone cheating on you, and would judge them and the person they were doing it with, why is it ok just because it’s not you? I get you would be more upset if it was you, but if it’s wrong, it’s wrong. The degree of separation from your own emotions is irrelevant.

Would be none of my business. People make their own decisions.

My friend is seeing a married man with kids. I don't love it, but she isn't the first affair he's had and neither want it to become a proper relationship. So it doesn't bother me too much. She isn't encouraging him to leave his wife/ kids and she never goes near their marital home. If she was actively trying to break up a marriage/ steal a husband and father I would probably back away.

That’s true, but it is still morally poor. If you think you are more in love with someone else than you are with your partner, then leave. No need for an affair. Leave one relationship before you start another.

I do find the angst surprising at times. I’ve had affairs. The people I’ve had them with have had other affairs. I’m confident my DH has had a fling but we operate a don’t ask don’t tell policy at home. The prevailing position across the people I’ve known is one of feeling trapped, for a variety of reasons. Personally I am married to someone I massively out-earn and cannot easily leave because of the financial situation we find ourselves in. We cannot afford to run two houses and have resigned ourselves to living that way. I don’t advertise this but friends are aware. Those friends have done similar. Or find themselves in similar positions. It’s not uncommon for high earning women to find themselves trapped.

I’m aware my behaviour could be regarded as deplorable by some. But I also think you’ve no idea what happens in someone else’s life and relationship and judgement is unhelpful.

I feel no obligation to their wives. They are nothing to do with me. Also I have no interest in them leaving their wives. Why would I want to go from one trap straight into another relationship? I have affairs because I want freedom and escapism. I don’t think about the morality of it: my own moral compass is one of people not owning people. Sex is just friction at the end of the day so I don’t think that’s the thing to get upset about. I do understand that an emotional connection can be difficult but I don’t think it makes me a bad person. It makes me a person who tends to take opportunities as they arise and only has one life. My friends know this. They remain my friends.

I wouldn't judge the woman my partner was having an affair with (and haven't when it happened in a previous relationship). His commitment is to me, hers isn't/wasn't.

Really? I find that hard to believe (I also speak from experience). How do you suppose your husband knowing she was interested came about? It’s morally wrong to encourage someone to break a serious promise, and I do judge that. Obviously I judge the promise breaker more harshly, but even so…

The prevailing position across the people I’ve known is one of feeling trapped, for a variety of reasons. Personally I am married to someone I massively out-earn and cannot easily leave because of the financial situation we find ourselves in. We cannot afford to run two houses and have resigned ourselves to living that way. I don’t advertise this but friends are aware. Those friends have done similar. Or find themselves in similar positions. It’s not uncommon for high earning women to find themselves trapped.

If you have genuinely agreed to have an open marriage, that is a different situation, as long as all parties know the score. If you are just having affairs you are exploiting your partner and making the situation worse by having so much dishonesty in the relationship.

If that’s really how you feel about women you are screwing over, then I would definitely tell you I judged you and wouldn’t want you as my friend. And if you are doing it to make yourself feel better because you are so materialistic you won’t break up your marriage because of financial constraints I’d judge you even more. You are making other people deeply unhappy so your standard of living can remain high. I hope you are actually really unhappy with the way you are living your life, and that this post is bravado, because you should be.

It’s not ok unless the people you are having affairs with have also agreed to open marriages. And even then it’s a bloody sad way to live.

This is what we did when one of the ladies in our friendship group was in an ‘entanglement’. She was also respectful in not forcing any of it on us, even when they officially got together.

Didn’t last long, as she soon realised he wasn’t the man for her (something we’d already surmised based on the bits we heard), and we supported her through that.

I know I'm not the poster you're responding to, but as someone who wouldn't end a friendship for this... it's not that it's OK because it's not me, but that my connection to the situation - being friends with the OW - sets out what my responsibilities and remits are exactly.

It's not my place to police someone's marriage or private life. I'm friends with someone who is doing a bad thing. If this was part of a pattern that made me think she was an overall bad person, then we shouldn't be friends at all. If, as it was when I was in that situation, she was a good person who did a bad thing while in a bad place, then I don't have to think what she's doing is OK to still want to try to help her to stop doing it. She's more likely to finish it if she's still got someone for support when she leaves him.

I suppose the two key points that can never really be explained to MN's satisfaction are a) I feel that while affairs are wrong, they are not all the same and some are more forgivable than others. I don't think having an affair alone is the mark of an irredeemably evil Bad Person. I don't even think they're necessarily the worst thing you can do in a marriage. Everyone points out the "forsaking all others" vow but skims over some of the others - to have and to hold, to love and to cherish.

And b) I also don't think a woman is responsible for where a married man puts his married dick. I don't think it's good behaviour, but at the end of the day it's his commitment that he made and only he is answerable for it. No point getting Barry to promise something to you and then losing it at Greta because he failed you. If you can't trust him, it's over. Nobody else matters.

If you don't accept these two premises then you'll never get what I'm saying. If you do, then you will. But anyway, that's how I feel about it.

@SurprisedWithAHorse I haven’t anywhere said I wouldn’t be friends with the woman, just that I’d judge the behaviour - unless, as you say, it was a pattern of repeated affairs or other selfish behaviour, then I’d be off.
I have a little issue with your point b) though. I think she does have responsibility for where the married man puts his dick if that place is her vagina. That’s where the judgement comes in.

Strange you find it hard to believe. He cheated on me, not her. Even if she dangled her fanny right in his face he didn't have to do anything.

I had the same situation. My friend was recently divorced and decided to 'enjoy herself' One of the men she was having 'no strings attached' sex with was married with children and she knew them. She didn't see the harm because she wasn't going to break up his relationship, it was just sex. I told her that she was completely out of order and I was disgusted.
They did stop when she got a BF. I've never been the same with her though. The other man is still with his wife.

Which is why I judge him more harshly. But you genuinely don’t think it’s morally at all questionable to dangle your fanny in the face of a married man?
To, taking the situation out of it, encourage someone to break a very serious promise?

No, I don't. I have no feelings about it whatsoever except towards the one doing the cheating but even then, I consider they may have their reasons, especially if I don't really know them very well.

I concern myself with my relationship. No one else's.

The possibility of this happening is exactly what would be worrying me.

OPs friend is lonely and probably a bit vulnerable, hasn't got the sense to be discreet about the situation so has already pissed some of the group off, and has identified OP as the person she's going to share it all with.

All of this would be enough to make me want to back away. I know sometimes affair partners end up living happily ever after, but this isn't exactly screaming one of those situations. Looking at this completely aside from anyone's moral take, it's at minimum a potential shitshow that she wants to drag OP into.

She's not responsible for his commitment or sexual behaviour. It isn't honourable but at the end of the day it isn't her responsibility. Like I said, if he can't be trusted then it's over. If she doesn't want to live life constrained by marriage then she doesn't have to, as long as she doesn't marry. If everyone who makes the commitment keeps it then it'll be self policed...the only way when it comes to voluntary, consensual personal commitments.

But again, I can't ever explain this to MN's satisfaction.

Judging behaviour, well, few of us think everything a person does is right, including ourselves. Love the sinner, hate the sin and all that. I'd find it harder to be friends with someone who broke plates in a rage because I loathe uncontrolled anger and can't stand out of control angry people.

It’s not about the relationship really though. I’m asking whether you would think it morally dubious for someone to do their level best to get someone to break a serious promise. Obviously if the person then breaks the promise they are unambiguously morally wrong, but the persuader? I think they are in the wrong too.