Husband got Prosecution Notice for 5 and 7 yr old No Seat Belts

[PoppyMK]

My husband received a Notice of Prosecution from the Police because he has apparently been caught driving on the M25 with our two children in the back of the car without seats belts (unclear which child it is, or whether it's both, from the notice).

I am concerned because we are in the process of separating and I want to know exactly what happened so i can make a judgement about whether my children are safe with him. AIBU or overreacting?

I have tried asking him about this - first he claimed he didn't know they had no seat belt on, then he claimed they wouldn't listen to him to stop trying to climb over the back of the seats.

I have no idea how to go about obtaining whatever evidence the Police have - but it would seem to be important that I have access to it as the co-parent of both children?

As an aside, I'm pretty certain he hasn't even responded to the notice by the deadline as I've seen what look like at least two further letters arrive for him, but as that is a problem for him and the consequences of which he will face, which will presumably be automatic points on his licence in addition to those he'll already get for the actual offence.

I would warn them very firmly they are behaving dangerously and you are going to stop the car if they don’t sit back in their car seat and put their seat belt back on.

I would meanwhile be driving to the next safe place to stop, but not stop at the hard shoulder, as wouldn’t consider that a safe place.

Hi soontobe did you mean to quote me?

Idkwym by “we don’t know that he didn’t”

My post doesn’t mention whether he knew or didn’t know, but in the OPs he admitted he did know.

I’m not sure about the stats, but it’s pretty common sense that being stationery next to a busy live 70mph lane, is more dangerous then pulling off at a services or leaving at a junction and finding a safe place to pull over.

all it takes is a second of inattention by someone in the slow lane and they could easily clip your car. If someone is entering/exiting the vehicle at the time or a rear seat passenger has no seatbelt, it would almost certainly end in a fatality.

Even people sat in the car wearing seatbelts can easily be killed in those circumstances, that’s exactly why you are told to abandon the vehicle if you come to a stop on a hard shoulder. .

We had one that used to undo there seat belt
right or wrong I’d take the least worst option of carrying on rather stopping on the hard shoulder terrifies me especially when your all in The car

Exactly this, if you have to stop on the hard shoulder exit your vehicle and get the other side of the crash barrier. That is why people should have a space blanket or similar in their cars so they can stay warm.

In my view, they aren't as well disciplined with him because he often isn't aware (a bit on the spectrum) and then when he is aware, he won't consistently and firmly follow up.@PoppyMK
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So rude ( not to him )*

I would want to know why he was pulled over. Was there some other issue with his driving that made the police notice him and they only spotted the unbuckled kids when they pulled him over? Or were the kids visibly bouncing around in the back for long enough for the police to notice and decide the driver wasn't dealing with it?
Absolutely on the dad for not dealing with them himself as soon as he realised there was a problem.

@NewFriendlyLadybird so what are you supposed to do when your 3yr old manages to open the car door on a motorway?

Yabu, in fact since you say they wouldn't do it with you perhaps your kids need to be taught how to respect their elders- particularly ones "on the spectrum". You seem very keen to blame yous H rather than two unruly kids.

How on earth would a 3 year old manage to open a car door on a motorway?

they shouldn't be able to. You should have the childlocks on and the windows also locked if they're clever enough to figure out you can open a window and open the door from the outside.

if you're driving with children under 8 without the childlocks on, you're courting chaos.

It's not quite as easy to pull over on a motorway as you'd think, particularly a smart motorway.

It sounds plausible to me that the kids are out of their belts, but dad can't stop/get off to the next junction when they're spotted by a police car.

It really shouldn't be a question of which parent is driving, so much as the kids shouldn't be getting out of their seats when the car is moving at all.

As an aside, I'm pretty certain he hasn't even responded to the notice by the deadline as I've seen what look like at least two further letters arrive for him, but as that is a problem for him and the consequences of which he will face, which will presumably be automatic points on his licence in addition to those he'll already get for the actual offence.

I’ve just noticed this. If the NIP was sent with a s172 notice to name the driver and he hasn’t responded then he could be prosecuted for failure to name the driver. That offence would replace any seatbelt case because the driver isn’t established. Failing to name carries a heftier fine and points than the sear belt one.
If he is already confirmed as the driver and the correspondence is to arrange a voluntary interview which he ignores then they can build the case without his account. If the additional letters are a summons or postal requisition and he doesn’t respond then they can prove the case in his absence.

I would imagine that he was caught, just like other people are with driving offences.
Years ago my (stupid) husband was eating pasta on the motorway. He said there was a vehicle next to him, next thing he sees is some sort of recording device and he's pulled over.

So if its anything like that situation, they will have a recording of what actually happened.

I wouldn't be letting him take them into a car anytime soon, however you do need legal advice, ASAP on how you can enforce this.

I think that the fact he was driving on a motorway with them without a seat belt shows quite an extreme lack of care for their safety.
Then the shouting at them when you got home, all seems a bit like the less exposure to him the better.

Devil's advocate for just a second though. What have the kids said happened? Did they undo their belts?

"this is just one of many examples of questionable choices which, over time and taken together, mean I have to constantly consider whether the safety of my children is being compromised."

This is absolutely key. I'm not surprised there's a lot more behind this one incident - which is a very serious incident - and the fact that you two are separating. You absolutely need to consider the safety and well-being of your children as paramount when you are negotiating child arrangements. In the first instance you could seek advice from NSPCC. I do think it's worth talking to social services to seek their advice on protecting the children. I wonder if police have reported to them already? In which case you should be proactive and reach out to them as well.

If you and your STBXH are not able to reach an agreement between yourselves or in mediation, you will need to go to court and CAFCASS should be involved. See https://childlawadvice.org.uk/information-pages/the-role-of-cafcass/

AIBU is really not the best place for this kind of thread so I suggest you get it moved or start a new one in Relationships or Legal.

As already alluded to by pp about social workers, in the courts there is a very low bar as to what is deemed to be acceptable parenting, imho you will be on a hiding to nothing if you expect this to influence how shared care will be allocated.

@sandyhappypeople we couldn't believe it either!

@PhantomUnicorn you haven't actually answered the question.

Assuming a three year old could get out of their car seat, then be able to open the door handle (assuming you didn’t have any child locks engaged??) they wouldn’t have been able to open the door at motorway speeds, it’s just not physically possible.

I’d actually be loath to pull up on the hard shoulder for a different reason as if there was no child locks, there’d nothing to stop them opening the door when you come to a stop, and they could be straight out into motorway traffic, it would be safer to get off the motorway to deal with it.. and put the child locks on!

@sandyhappypeople DC did not need to get out of the car seat to open the door. The handle is reachable from the seat if you lean forward a bit. The door only opened a tiny fraction, just enough for the door alarm to sound. At 70mph you can't open a door much more than that. I leant over from the front passenger seat & held the door closed until we could stop - then I ran out, shut the door properly & frantically consulted the manual to find the child locks. Then delivered a stern lecture about not touching the door handles!

I can’t remember what I said that this would be in reply to but luckily I’ve always had child locks.

I assume the police pulled him over so it must have been very visible the DC didn’t have seatbelts on, as in standing up or climbing over seats? I didn’t think cameras would pick that up on a motorway, there’s only speed cameras on the M25 as far as I’m aware and zi drive on it regularly.

This is both DC not just one who suddenly decided to take their seatbelt off at the moment the police were behind and would have been at speed although the M25 is 50 in some areas but that’s still fast enough to serious injury if having to emergency stop or slow down quickly if cut up.

I’d certainly try to avoid him driving them anywhere from now on with such shit parenting.

Another thought if the children undo seat belts I would also make sure children locks were in operation on all doors. My friends always new when I had been with dgc as I would have to get out and open doors, even though new the rules and never broke them.

Why are your childlocks not on?

I would think that if you write in and ask for a copy of photographs giving the vehicle reg you might get it sent to you at the same address that the Notice was sent to? There must be an address on the back of the envelope?

Totally unacceptable and I wouldn't let them in his car in this situation - even if I wasn't separated.

If he drives for work then I wonder if his job is at risk if he doesn't respond