Husband got Prosecution Notice for 5 and 7 yr old No Seat Belts

[PoppyMK]

My husband received a Notice of Prosecution from the Police because he has apparently been caught driving on the M25 with our two children in the back of the car without seats belts (unclear which child it is, or whether it's both, from the notice).

I am concerned because we are in the process of separating and I want to know exactly what happened so i can make a judgement about whether my children are safe with him. AIBU or overreacting?

I have tried asking him about this - first he claimed he didn't know they had no seat belt on, then he claimed they wouldn't listen to him to stop trying to climb over the back of the seats.

I have no idea how to go about obtaining whatever evidence the Police have - but it would seem to be important that I have access to it as the co-parent of both children?

As an aside, I'm pretty certain he hasn't even responded to the notice by the deadline as I've seen what look like at least two further letters arrive for him, but as that is a problem for him and the consequences of which he will face, which will presumably be automatic points on his licence in addition to those he'll already get for the actual offence.

*Manadou · Today 14:11

If they were climbing about, and clearly unbelted, he should have pulled over and refused to move until they put their belts on. He should not have moved off at the start of the journey until he was sure of that*

That would have been even more dangerous. He was on the M25 and a lot of it doesn’t have a hard shoulder. Saying to stop and refuse to move on the inside lane of the M25 would have resulted in a lot more than an intended prosecution

Even the hard shoulder is a dangerous place to be

Mine took their seatbelts off regularly and scrambled about in the car.

I have been on the M25 and had ds 10months, get out of his rear facing car seat and dd deciding to join him in the front seat. They thought it was hilarious

Hard shoulder is too dangerous to stop on so you have to drive carefully and pull off at the next turning whilst screaming your head off to get back in their seats and then you have the problem of once off the motorway there is very few places you can safely and legally pull over to put them back in their seats again.

If he didn’t strap them in before he set off then by all means read him the riot act but if dc got out of their seats once then next time it could be you who finds yourself prosecuted.

It was a school Coach I just used the term Bus Company. I get the impression the driver was not wearing a Seatbelt nor were a lot of the kids. I appreciate it is very difficult to get a large number of teenagers to obey. However, you would think the driver would tell the kids the coach is going nowhere until you are all wearing belts. In this case and other school coaches going forward it has to be compulsory that kids are wearing belts. The schools and Coach Companies have got to work together.

I bring this up because recently probably post Covid I am seeing a number of quite blatant disregards for safety on the roads. These notably include appallingly dangerous driving and people not wearing Seat belts in both the front and back.

Is he a generally ineffective parent?

Most 5 & 7 year old children know seatbelts are non-negotiable, so what inspired them to have them off?

Have you spoken to the children to see if they set off without seatbelts or if they removed them mid-travel?

If your 5yo cannot sit sensibly and remain in their seatbelt at all times, then they should still be in a harnessed car seat (preferably rear facing) as they are not mature enough to use the adult seatbelt yet. The same could be said for the 7yo. If DH didn't bother to strap them in, or made no attempt to stop at the nearest safe location when he realised they had unbuckled themselves, then that's a different matter and he deserves the prosecution notice.

Do the kids know you and DH are separating? Could they have been playing up because of this?

If the kids took the seatbelts off whilst DH was driving and started climbing around in the car then that is totally different to DH not putting seatbelts on in the first place and I think you need to back your DH on this. Your kids are old enough to know they don't remove seat belts and muck about in a moving car and I'd be furious with my kids if they did this to me or DH.

If however your DH set off without the kids buckled up then that is an entirely different issue and you are entitled to be annoyed with DH and consider whether your kids are safe with him or not.

The hard shoulder is an extremely dangerous place. It should be used for emergencies only. It is NOT a substitute for the naughty step.

How can you even ask AIBU. Words fail me.

That is also concerning and needs to be officially documented.

The hard shoulder is an extremely dangerous place. It should be used for emergencies only. It is NOT a substitute for the naughty step

No but the OP said the kids were climbing over the seats - while the car was on the motorway. That's incredibly dangerous for both the OPs family and other drivers if her ex gets distracted. It's slightly more than the kids just needing told off

If i knew my kids had
a) taken their seatbelts off in the back of my ExH's car
and
b) refused to put them back on when he told them to, and proceeded to piss about on the backseat of the car on the Motorway, while HIS responsibility was to drive the car and not crash it.

I'd be joining him in absolutely bollocking them. He might be an ineffectual parent, but what do you expect him to do in that situation, stop the car? Shout at them? What if he did and they still didn't listen, thats a distraction that is a car crash waiting to happen.

You absolutely 100% need to back him up in making it clear to the kids, that REGARDLESS of who's car they're in THEY DO NOT REMOVE THEIR SEATBELTS UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES

Never mind taking notes on proving he is a shit parent... back him up, ffs.

Deal with your damn children instead of patting yourself on the back with 'well they behave when they're with me' like it's some smug point scoring contest.

Totally agree with @PhantomUnicorn - the OP's comment that the kids are "reasonably behaved" (for her) gives the game away. Sounds like they were misbehaving big time yet the OP is blaming the Dad (who was trying to navigate the racetrack of the M25). Which probably explains why he didn't tell the OP immediately after it happened.

*Kinneddar · Today 15:25

If the OPs Ex was already on the motorway and one or both of the children unclipped themselves from their seats what is he supposed to do if he's nowhere near an exit/services to get off the motorway*

He should have pulled into the hard shoulder

What if he was on a Smart Motorway

There are sections of the M25 where there is no hard shoulder

Social services are overwhelmed with cases of abuse and neglect.

How sad.

So if it’s a notice of intended prosecution then they will most likely call him in for a voluntary interview where they will put the evidence to him.
lf he’s received a summons or postal requisition to attend or submit a plea to court then any evidence would be sent with it.
He may get offered a fixed penalty. You aren’t entitled to be told or to see anything.

This feels strange they seem like well disciplined kids with you then would do this with him. What is he normally like with parenting and risk? This will tell and everyone else a lot about how likely it is he did this on purpose.

The 7 year old should know not to ever undo their seatbelt in the car, even if dad is more lax on discipline than you. Tbh the 5 year old should too.

They are pretty fucking naughty kids if they are pulling this stunt on any adult. The m25 can be quite hard to immediately pull over on, its absolutely chocker 99% of the time.

Once upon a time, there was no seatbelt law. Heck, there weren't even seatbelts. And somehow or other, we got to adulthood.

Well, not everyone did! The ones who were killed aren't here to tell their stories. It's not as though seatbelt laws were brought in for no reason. Plus, there were fewer cars on the road in the 70s.

Domestic violence and sexual assault used to be taken much less seriously than they are now. It doesn't mean that was a good thing. Princess Diana would probably be alive today if she'd been wearing a seatbelt.

@PhantomUnicorn i think if you read both the tone and the content of my replies you’ll see this is actually the opposite of point scoring. If I was point scoring I wouldn’t feel the need to ask if I was being reasonable (and I probably wouldn’t care what other’s viewpoints were), I’d just be hassling a lawyer, social services etc., which I have no intention of doing. It’s exactly because, in theory, this could happen to any parent I asked for the views of others. As you’ll see there are a range of views expressed in the comments and so that confirms this is not a straightforward judgement to make. I wasn’t asking for views on whether I should be annoyed at the kids or back him up that what they did was wrong (I did both!). I encourage you to read all the things the OP says before commenting so you’re actually adding to the debate without looking to judge the motives of the OP somewhat unfairly.

"I am concerned because we are in the process of separating and I want to know exactly what happened so i can make a judgement about whether my children are safe with him. AIBU or overreacting?"

From your OP.

"this is just one of many examples of questionable choices which, over time and taken together, mean I have to constantly consider whether the safety of my children is being compromised"

From your second post

"I think this is down to his parenting style rather than an inherently poor discipline in the children"

From your 4th post

I think i've got your tone and reasons down thanks. Its not to do with supporting your H to make sure the kids are behaving in a dangerous situation. It IS down to inherently poor discipline btw.

But carry on, next time it might be a phonecall from the police reporting a crash, but you keep on patting yourself on the back because "they've never done it with me, I think because they absolutely know I won't tolerate it."

The police won’t tell you anything.

This!

I’m pretty certain the straps that go across that you add on are a definite no no from a safety point of view

i remember it coming up at something I was at in relation to why we don’t have the but the states do. If I recall the person said because they have huge safety precautions and should never be used.

But you’re 100% right that if an 18 month old can get out of the car seat that it needs a new one. One of the ones that have the sections you clip in rather than straps are meant to be safer than the 5 point harnesses to from a friend of mine who is a pead dr. He says he operates in at least 2 children a week who are in car accidents and they have a much better safety (his was a few years ago.)

Yeah - but a lot of kids got avoidable injuries and many used to die in the "good old days". Easy for people to be thrown through the windscreen in an emergency stop at 70mph

I received a head injury in such an accident in the 1970s in a car with no rear seatbelts. It was a low speed, emergency stop, less than 20mph and I was thrown from the middle rear seat and ended up in the front where I hit my head on the dashboard.

I am not surprised you are furious op. I would recommend some legal advice. If he is convincted that will be something to reference. Do you have other concerns?

However, my experience of cafcass and the courts (from dealing with it for myself and supporting others) is that even if he had them tied to the roof and was necking beer as he hurtled along the motorway they would probably just say "dad has a more relaxed parenting style than mum but we have no concerns" and leave it at that . The bar is obscenely low.

(Not saying dont do everything you can to keep them safe but also please do some reading understand the topsy turvy rabbit hole world of the family courts so you are prepared )

I hear what you are saying about a 'smart' motorway - they are very dangerous and it's hard to know what to do for the best on them. However, more generally with a hard shoulder, this: I wouldn't stop on a hard shoulder for this reason is misguided. I've for a non-breakdown issue that really required to stop. It's the right thing to do. It's much more dangerous to continue with loose children and a distracted driver trying to monitor what they are doing and get them to behave.