Husband got Prosecution Notice for 5 and 7 yr old No Seat Belts

[PoppyMK]

My husband received a Notice of Prosecution from the Police because he has apparently been caught driving on the M25 with our two children in the back of the car without seats belts (unclear which child it is, or whether it's both, from the notice).

I am concerned because we are in the process of separating and I want to know exactly what happened so i can make a judgement about whether my children are safe with him. AIBU or overreacting?

I have tried asking him about this - first he claimed he didn't know they had no seat belt on, then he claimed they wouldn't listen to him to stop trying to climb over the back of the seats.

I have no idea how to go about obtaining whatever evidence the Police have - but it would seem to be important that I have access to it as the co-parent of both children?

As an aside, I'm pretty certain he hasn't even responded to the notice by the deadline as I've seen what look like at least two further letters arrive for him, but as that is a problem for him and the consequences of which he will face, which will presumably be automatic points on his licence in addition to those he'll already get for the actual offence.

It’s far more dangerous to stop on the hard shoulder than it is to carry on without seatbelts until the next exit. The chance of being in a serious accident on the hard shoulder is many, many times higher than the chance of having a serious accident while driving.

The fine for stopping on the hard shoulder for any reason other than mechanical failure or illness is £2500 I believe. Having said that, when my then two-year-old succeeded in unbuckling his car seat while I was on the motorway, I stopped and would have considered the fine a price worth paying, had the police noticed.

I'd be keeping a close eye on the post. I imagine if they have enough evidence to have sent an intention of prosection they will likely want to go to court.

If and when the court date comes through, make a note and attend in the public gallery and then hear everything for yourself.

It could be a fine, point etc, or depending on what evidence they have they could even say child endangerment/neglect although that's unlikely I would have thought, but not unheard of - In which case they would inform social services who would be speaking to you about it too.

I think he would try to lie his way around you, best you can do is attend and see for yourself.

Once upon a time, there was no seatbelt law. Heck, there weren't even seatbelts. And somehow or other, we got to adulthood. Of course the seatbelt laws of today make sense, kids and everybody else should be properly strapped in, and unbuckling and climbing about the car cannot ever be tolerated. I'd say the kids DO need disciplining about this, and the husband too. But if the kids are little sods, then cut him a bit of slack. He's being done for it anyway, isn't he?

If you came home to him telling the kids off as it was their fault, if he hadn't belted them in before setting off, why would he be blaming them, I'd be inclined to believe that it was their fault. Unless he's an evil genius and planned it that way. Did he get pulled over or spotted on camera?

It's so dangerous to be stopped on the hard shoulder I think it's best to pull off somewhere safe at the first opportunity, so it comes down to whether he did that or not. Presumably one child was on the driver's side so to belt them back in he would be next to the live lane of the motorway if he stopped on the hard shoulder. They then might unclip themselves again as soon as he sets off.

I'd be having a stern word with your children first about pissing about taking seatbelts off on a motorway and then I'd also be asking your husband what happened - if he was doing 70 on the motorway and they've done this in the back and he hasn't been able to safely pull in - ie on a smart motorway etc and then just happened to be caught that's totally different to wilfully not buckling kids in the back

I'm torn here.

Of course he shouldn't be driving around with the kids unrestrained, but at their ages they should know better than to take their seat belts off while the car is moving.

If he set off knowing they weren't buckled in, then he's a dick, but if they took their belts off on the motorway then there was very little he could do about it until he could safely pull off at a junction.

For those suggesting he pulls over on the hard shoulder - you can't do that unless it's an emergency. The fine for doing so is £2500.

A 5&7 yo should be properly educated about the dangers of not wearing a seatbelt. It's drilled into everyone in our house and has become an automatic part of getting into a car. There would be all hell released if one of mine undid a seatbelt. But they would never think to do it. It's madness.

Focus on teaching your kids to put on a seatbelt and you won't have to worry about your useless DH.

I'm not blaming your dc by the way. But if you are divorcing then you need to teach them how to be age in his care.

It looks like not restraining a child can result in a £500 fine.

Failing to provide the details of the person driving the car can result in a £600 fine and 6 penalty points on your licence.

The failure to provide penalty is often higher than the actual offense itself, to encourage people to not cover for others.

He would be better to just accept the original fine and learn from it.

But, if you've walked in on him shouting and blaming the kids for it, he's clearly not the type of person to take responsibility for it in the first place.

I echo the comments of others and suggest speaking with the children to see what they say (if they can remember). If they don't remember, make sure you reiterate how they must wear a seatbelt and use their car seats when they're in the car. Not only is it exceedingly dangerous, but can result in Mummy or Daddy getting in to trouble with the police too.

Did he get pulled over by the police? If so, I'm amazed you didn't hear about it from the kids. What did he say to them to stop them from telling you??

I would be very reluctant to leave them in his care unless he acknowledges he could and should have dealt with it better. As a PP said, perhaps some parenting classes might be a good idea if he's willing to accept them? If the kids behave better for you than him, it's clearly not just you having unruly kids that's the issue.

This. Is he usually so neglectful/casual about safety ?

How old is his car ? If not ancient, he would have been alerted to the fact that seatbelts were not on and at that point should have pulled over until they put them back on. He sounds fairly useless sorry OP.

DC without seatbelts on and out of control in a car (if they were crawling around ) is an emergency . No traffic policeman would give a parent a fine for pulling over for this reason.

I think he’s getting a really hard here when we really don’t know how it happened. I’m guessing as he’s going through a separation that he may not. Be in a great space. Anyone can forget to put a car seat on as a one off - if that is what happened . It’s possible to get distracted when he’s about to put them on, or he thought they’d put them on themselves, etc.
I agree that I would not stop on the hard shoulder for safety reasons in those circumstances but drive carefully until I could get off the motorway. If the kids unstrapped themselves and we’re messing around - that’s the kids fault. Kids to bad things when you’re not always ready for it.

if he never bothers with seat belts for the kids, then I take all that back.

If that happens while you're in the outside lane of a busy M25, that is easier said than done. Plus it's illegal to stop for that reason, so you can't win either way.

For me it would be down to what the "evidence" is. If it's one of those elevated cameras and issued by a computer, they can barely see anything. If it's a real, human police officer who's actually witnessed the situation and thought it was worth prosecuting, that's an entirely different matter.

Instead of using the fact your kids were dicking about in a way which could have had serious consequences to point score against your ex you need to be supporting him on this one. It says a lot that he didn't feel he could tell you.........when realistically you need to be working together. Because next time it could be you in a dangerous situation on the motorway when they decide to pull the same stunt......maybe if they had parents who tried to put their own toxicity aside and get along for their sake they'd be a bit better behaved ? 🧐

You also have to weigh that up against the risk of an accident while you're on the hard shoulder, though.

I totally agree with this.

If the kids won't do it with the OP, but did it with their dad, I agree the OP needs to have very serious words with them indeed.

And her ex needs to face the consequences of his inability to keep discipline. I have sympathy to an extent (due to not being able to pull over easily) but the police caught him so he needs to deal with the letter and fast. He does not want a criminal conviction at court either - I don't know if this is the sort of thing that would appear on a DBS but if it is, even more reason to act fast.

People stop on the hard shoulder to change a tyre, if their child is being sick, or even less than that The stats for people who die on hard shoulders are shocking (which is why all the hysteria about smart motorways is a little misguided - no motorways are safe). And this was the M25 so we don't know if that section even had a hard shoulder.

I wouldn't need police evidence tbf if he was yelling at them and blaming them because he failed to follow correct safety protocol and to keep the kidd in the correct safe traveling state yet he is blaming them he is abusive regardless

If it wasn't thier fault for taking their belts off when he was already driving then whose was it ?

Kids aren't without responsibility, and there's little that can be done when already driving if kids choose to behave in such a stupid way.

This.

It doesn’t matter if the children did make a stupid decision and decide to take their belts off, it is still the driver’s responsibility to ensure their passengers are safe.

Why didn’t he tell the OP about this straight away if the children did this? Surely as co-parent you would want to warn the other parent in case they did it again and so the message on their bad behaviour could be reinforced? I suspect he didn’t tell her because he knows he should have done more and the kids wouldn’t pull this shit on mum because mum parents properly.

It's all very well people berating the OP for the fact that her STBX is a poor parent - but let's imagine she and her STBX work together to ensure that their DC know that under no circumstances are they to take their seat belts off when they are in the car with their father. Fine. That's a clear rule.

Then what happens in a different dangerous situation for which the children haven't been primed, and which the father is wholly unable to manage?

The children aren't the problem here, and the OP isn't the problem either. The problem is that their father is not able to parent them in a calm and consistent way which keeps them safe. Today it's seat belts. What will it be next time?

OP take a photo of the summons if it’s still laying around. This is the only documentary evidence you will probably need as evidence.
Where the safety of children is concerned it is no defence to say, well they were naughty and wouldn’t listen to me.
If he is unable to ensure they stay belted in then it would be reasonable for you to request that he not be permitted to drive the children and that contact ought to be at a contact centre until their safety can demonstrated.

Its not just cars where people should be wearing Seat Belts poor, Jessica Baker from West Kirby Grammar School would still be alive if she had been wearing one. In that case it is a small miracle that no other children were killed. I have to be seriously be angry with both the bus company and the schools concerned for allowing children to travel on a Motorway without seatbelts on.

I didn't think you were allowed to go on buses without a seat belt anymore but it was a bus and not a coach wasn't it. That was such a sad story.