For stopping schizophrenic uncle from seeing newborn?

[Emily19932]

Hi
My newborn daughters uncle (her dads brother) is schizophrenic. He has been hospitalised for the past 2 years in psychiatric ward but he is now allowed out every Saturdays under the observation of his mum. He has to be in hospital full time as his anti psychotic medication is injected. He hears voices and often talks to himself and about spirits etc.

A few months ago when he came home he pushed his mum down the stairs which put her in hospital as “the voices told him to” he also pulled a kitchen knife out on his brother again because the voices told him to. He will often talk to himself and when asked who he is talking to he will say the voices. He sent me a very nasty text a few weeks ago telling me to kill myself, I messaged him back asking why on earth he’d say that and he said and I quote “sorry that wasn’t me, the man in my head wrote that I’m really sorry I hope you’re ok”

Please don’t get me wrong I understand schizophrenia is a serious mental illness and that this is not his fault, but even so I feel like he could pose a very real risk to newborn daughter and that he could suddenly turn on the flick of a switch. When he has had episodes it’s as if he develops super human strength so if he was to do something I don’t believe his mum, dad or brother could stop him because he is so strong in these episodes and is very large stature wise.

My partner (her dad) is in the marines and he’s currently not in the country. His mum has been having the baby for the day on Saturdays. She’s recently asked if it’s ok if uncle see’s her this coming Saturday as he has day release. I’ve told her due to his past actions I don’t want him to but when or if he starts getting better I am happy for him to. He is clearly not better hence the text he sent me the other day. I am very terrified that if he is in the same place as my daughter he could turn on her and try to harm her and his mum would be powerless to stop him.

Shes told me I am being unreasonable because he’d never hurt a child, I understand that in a sane state of mind he wouldn’t harm anybody but he’s already tried to harm his family because of these voices so what’s to say these voices won’t command him to harm my baby.

AIBU?

Anyone who had recently told me to go and kill myself would not be going anywhere near my children, let alone someone who has a serious mental illness that causes violent outbursts . Absolutely no way OP. Your baby is priority for you - not someone else feelings.

This was my exact reaction too. As someone else suggested, maybe you can do an online virtual call this time and play it by ear going forward.

I had a neighbour who took a shine to me shall we say, we were both in our early 20s and he knew my older brothers from when we were kids playing football etc. I could tell he was mentally unwell but didn’t know what his diagnosis was of course. He started approaching me everywhere in our town - the gym, the shopping centre etc…and I eventually began shutting him down and avoiding him. I wasn’t here for the #bekind.

I later found out a couple of years later he was in a psychiatric ward after attacking his (male) neighbour with a hammer. Apparently he had other violent episodes. Still unsure what his diagnosis is but it’s not so much about the label, the point is sometimes you just need to trust your instincts and give some people a wide berth.

Much easier just to keep your baby safe by not allowing her uncle near her until he is stabilised again.

I wouldn't allow it, no.

My best mates mum is schizophrenic, when the medication wasn't working we didn't go to her house, she came to us. When she was stable it was fine. She pulled a kitchen knife on her husband in one of her worst episodes.

My granny was schizophrenic, completely uncontrolled and much more misunderstood at the time, she wasn't safe for herself never mind a baby.

Shes told me I am being unreasonable because he’d never hurt a child
YANBU, and I'm sorry but you can't trust his Mum alone with your baby either, in case she tries to facilitate contact.

You would be unreasonable to consider allowing your MIL to have your baby at all, including with you there, so long as she doesn't accept that her son is a risk to all of you. I would not trust MIL's judgement, ever, after this.

Shes told me I am being unreasonable because he’d never hurt a child, I understand that in a sane state of mind he wouldn’t harm anybody but he’s already tried to harm his family because of these voices so what’s to say these voices won’t command him to harm my baby."

Your MIL is totally in denial about his condition. She has no idea how he will react to the baby and we all know one blow, one drop, one throw could kill your baby.
Is it really necessary for yoyr baby to be with your MIL without you at all?
You can use FaceTime or similar to speak to your BIL, he can see the baby in screen and that is totally sufficient.
You cannot put your baby at risk.

and I do have sympathy for your BIL, it sounds like a horrible illness which must be torturous for him but your baby’s safety takes priority.

From your OP, I am surprised that he is currently allowed home leave at all - he sounds very unstable. I have a close relative who is also a long term psychiatric inpatient and his leave privileges would certainly be suspended if the team at the hospital were aware of the incidents that you describe (assuming they are all recent and he hasn't subsequently recovered). That makes me wonder if your Mother-in-Law is being straight with them about how risky he is - she may be in denial about how poorly he still is, I'm sure she is desperate for him to be well again.

My relative also would not hurt a fly when well. But the point is that when they are ill they are literally not in their right mind, and situations can turn nasty very quickly.

Are the team at the hospital aware that there he has a newborn niece? I think this is important information for them to know and plan leave and family contact around - we have a social worker at the hospital that we plan family contact with, and all child contact has been very carefully risk assessed and meticulously planned. I am very grateful for that level of support, and - yes - as part of the process there has been liaison with our local child social work team and I haven't had any problem with that.

I would say very nicely to your MIL that you are sure BIL would not deliberately hurt a child, but neither would he injure his Mum. He has recently been very unwell and isn't better yet so you aren't willing to take the risk but , if they would like to, they could all have a video call with you on Saturday.
I would tell her that you aren't willing to allow a face to face visit until BIL's medical team can assure you his illness is controlled and your husband is home to visit with you.
If you think your MIL is going to go behind your back you have no alternative but to only let her visit the baby at your home with you present.
I would tell her that you like BIL and are sorry he's so ill at present but you have to be absolutely sure your baby is safe.
If MIL argues with you I would tell her that she isn't being realistic as it isn't long since she was injured, what if he pushes her when she's holding the baby. It's only a few days that he sent you a message that shows he's still very unwell.
Have you discussed it with your husband? Could he send her a message or phone her?

absolutely not-tel her shes not having the baby on that day if she insists

my cousin was sectioned for the same thing-theres no logic to them because they say its not them whose doing it-

This is very good advice!

Your MIL is also probably being a little bit of a ostrich with him being unwell/relapse as she doesn't wish to think of her son like that no parent does.

Absolutely not. It's not a question of whether he would hurt a child, but whether the voice in his head would make him do so. It's already made him send horrible messages to you which in his right mind he wouldn't do, and presumably that is also what caused him to hurt his mother. There is just no way you can take this risk. @Anonymouseposter's suggested way of dealing with it seems good.

Hello, I work in mental health and originally came on here thinking you were likely to be being unreasonable. However in some respects I don’t think you are, if he’s detained in hospital, his doctor should be asked to risk assess him being around children and babies.

Its unlikely that he would pose a risk to your baby but it should be properly thought through. In general psychosis is mainly risky when people or children are part of the delusions or bizarre beliefs. Whilst his schizophrenia might not be totally controlled, I imagine his patterns of behaviour and psychotic experiences have been fairly well assessed and this helps with being able to predict future behaviours. Psychosis isn’t usually totally random/unpredictable, there are usually established themes.

Just a thought Op, have you spoken to your DH about this situation. I think your MIL would take your refusal to visit far better if it came from your DH

The fact that he has been an inpatient for so long when mental health beds are in catastrophically short supply is an indication that he has been assessed as posing a significant risk either to himself or to others.

In the golden days of yore he’d have been an inpatient too, probably without any day release.

@Fingeronthebutton

I don't think he is in hospital purely for the injections. Even when he has been having injections, he's pushed his mother down the stairs and pulled a knife on his brother.

Absolutely do not let your baby near someone who is at risk of harming others, shes your baby so your call..do not worry about what others say, keep your baby safe. I live in Ireland and recently, there was a very sad story where the uncle murdered his 11 year old nephew. The uncle has schizophrenia, so many lives destroyed. Google it, these tragic situations happen

His depot obviously isn’t working. How long has he been on it? I’m surprised that he has unescorted leave with this level of risk, I assume that all incidents were reported to his team?

I would tell your MIL that until his treatment is successful and that his risk is lowered that you have to protect your baby. As others have suggested you could video call him but no face to face.

This is a total no brainer. No way would I let him anywhere near a baby. I wouldn't leave the baby at the MIL house either.

How sad. In days of yore when we had a functioning health services we had psychiatric nurses who would visit schizophrenic patients and inject them in their own homes.

@Fingeronthebutton This is still what usually happens, or they pop into a centre. If anything it's how things are more than at any other time in the past, as there's more demand on services. That he isn't living in the community shows he's really unwell.

@Fingeronthebutton we do! I do it. What our health service tries (Sometimes they get it wrong) not to do is to discharge people who are not ready to be discharged and in this case I would imagine that his continued detention is due to far more than just being on a depot.

Personally, I’d be wary of a video call unless his clinical team had recommended it. My brother didn’t have schizophrenia but he was sectioned a number of times with severe psychosis and could be aggressive at those times. He was very defensive about his mental health problems, mostly in denial, and very sensitive to any protective boundaries we tried to put in place to protect my children. Unfortunately in his case any contact with me was the occasion of very, very intense pressure for more involvement and contact, we couldn’t just meet for lunch and catch up. He’d be asking why he couldn’t come to stay, why he couldn’t move in, didn’t I agree my mum had sectioned him wrongly and could I imagine what that was like? It was draining and our mum couldn’t stand up to him and would capitulate and did in fact leave him alone with my daughter at her house despite promising not too, - doubtless after being hounded by him. He didn’t physically harm her but she was very uncomfortable. He was pulling her around the garden by her hand and singing to her, dressed in my kimono, telling her he wanted her to come and stay with him in his flat and didn’t she want to do that? My daughter was scared.

Your brother-in-law might be happy with a seeing your baby on a video call, but alternatively he might become obsessed with meeting her in person and upset that he’s not being given the opportunity to do so etc. as I say, I’d want to get the advice of his medical team and I wouldn’t trust the relayed opinion from your MIL.
My brother broke into my mother’s house two or three times when having psychotic crises and was very frightening. As a result I was terrified he’d do the same with me and I was then a single parent to two children, one severely disabled. When I moved house I was very clear with my mum that I didn’t want him knowing my address for that reason. I found out later that she’d actually showed him round my house when I was at work and the children were at school☹️

She never had a key to my houses after that.

A video call sounds like the best decision. It also helps to build things up over time.

Definitely get advice from the medical team though. They will be assessing his risk to himself and others regularly.