To think people don't actually understand the difference between Anti Zionism and Anti-Semetism in the context of the current conflict?

[Fruitandclottedcream]

Every time someone criticises the Israeli State or Zionism ideology, there is always someone who comments shouting about Anti-Semitism and how anyone who questions, criticises or condemns Israel's behaviour is Anti-Semitic. And it's really annoying because it's not true.

The definition of Anti-Semitism is "Prejudice or Hostility towards Jewish people".

Anti-Zionism in the context of the ongoing conflict between Israel and Palestine is being opposed to Israel's decades long oppression, genocide and apartheid of Palestinians. Including but not limited to leaving people stateless, giving Palestinians less rights than Israelis and creating the open air prison that is Gaza, depriving the people there of water, electricity and food, and bombing relentlessly while not giving anyone a way to escape.

Plenty of Jewish people practice their faith, but are anti Zionist and condemn what the Israeli government are doing.

And plenty of Zionists are Anti-Semites, but support the behaviour of the Israeli government (including a decent chunk of British MPs according to Google)

Disclaimer before anyone jumps on me: I absolutely condemn and despise Hamas and their actions. I've not mentioned them as they're not relevant to my point.

Interesting post. I’d no idea

I guess you’d be surprised to find out how often poc are told their lived experiences are not racism but something else. It happens a lot

Oh I would not be surprised. We all need to learn to shut up, sit down and listen to people’s LIVED experience.

The Palestinians of Israeli Citizenship on paper have the same rights. In reality, they are like the Travellers of the UK. Highly discriminated against, but again that is because Israeli policy positions Palestinians as a subset, akin to animals.

First of all I'm a minority. I'm Black/White Caribbean so for all intents and purposes having experienced it in the wider community and within my own family, I would say I'm pretty qualified to speak about racism. So please don't assume I'm white and tell me to shut up.

I disagree that non Jewish people can't give the definition of anti semitism. I also disagree that non Jewish people cannot say that Anti Zionism isn't inherently Anti-Semitic. Because it's true. However it is ALSO true, that lots of groups of people will use their "anti Zionism" as a way to be anti semitic.

Also I'm not going to tell you you're banging on about the holocaust. I personally call out anti semitism whenever I see it. I've done a lot of work to be anti racist over the years. And part of that included learning about Judaism, Jewish practices and the centuries of oppression and anti semitism, as well as how anti semetism is overtly and covertly presented. I'm not perfectly versed because obviously learning about a subject in adulthood is nowhere near the same as living and breathing it.

However I'm familiar with the creation of Israel and the exodus of Jewish people after WW2 which is why I'm solely against the modern political Zionist ideology, including the oppression of Palestine. I take no issue with Zionism in the context of creating a homeland for Jewish people. I'd want a safe homeland after centuries of oppression too. I also understand the religious significance of being in Israel.

For what it's worth, I am personally aware of the plights of other oppressed people, have actively raised awareness, fundraised money and also collected basic necessities and shipped them over. However I had no idea about the Israeli Bedouin. If you have the time or energy, please could you point me in the direction of accurate information about the situation and how to support? It's not that I'm too lazy, I'd just rather know I had accurate and fair information.

In terms of political agendas and cherry picking, I think there's a few reasons that the Israel/Palestine conflict is the one broadcast worldwide. You covered a few earlier in your post " or how the USA is using Israel to prevent the Middle East from becoming one big Islamic fundamentalist superstate, or how the US is using Israel as a tactical intelligence centre in the Middle East and how this relates to oil wealth, or how the US religious right extremists support Israel because of Biblical Literalism which is not exactly Jewish-friendly)"

Also from what I've read, the USA and UK also largely cherry pick the Israel/Palestine conflict as the one to show because both countries have a thriving arms trade with Israel, and focusing on this conflict benefits them all. In the past the USA have also openly said they need Israel as much as Israel needs them, so it stands to reason they would actively support the apartheid of Palestine, because if Palestinians stay divided, the current state of Israel can thrive. I could be completely inaccurate though as it's really hard to find information on why this is the conflict that is constantly in the media. I would actually argue that a lot of the above reasons are clearly rooted in Anti-Semitism or at the very least a disregard towards Jewish people.

All I would like to say to finish this is please don't jump to assumptions when posts like this come up. Some of us do educate ourselves. I also didn't intend to aim this question at Jewish people. I just wanted to know if anyone felt the same as me about Anti Zionism and anti semitism.

Have a good evening x

It's all very well saying unless you're x, y, z you shouldn't verbalise an opinion but shouldn't people have a say if they're being wholescale judged as or accused of, being something they don't think they are for thinking how they do?

No I don't think they can explain.

Could someone who claims to be anti-zionist please explain what you mean by that? Do you mean that eg Jews have no legitimate link to the land? Do you mean that Jews should now uproot and move elsewhere? And if so where to.
Thank you for any clarifications!

I think the question is where were the displaced Palestinians meant to go? Jordan wasn’t it?

I guess it’s the constant land grabs that I would say were Israel’s wrong doing. And yes the land that was originally meant for the Palestinians that is now occupied by Israel IS occupied land.

As for what the solution is - god knows. It will probably just go on and on.

What human rights violations are you talking about? If you can be specific, I can give you my view rather than you deciding it for me

Regarding a "homeland", in 2020 alone 20,000 Olim (Jewish immigrants) from 70 countries were granted permission to live in Israel due to the Right to Return policy. They might never have even been in the country, or had any connection to it. The Palestinians who were forced to leave in 1948 and 67 don't have any right to return. They have lived there for possibly thousands of years. Where is the fairness?

Yes, as I understand it anyone who is Jewish had the right to Israeli citizenship and to live there (hence the need for as much land as possible I guess). That’s all well and good but the people who were literally living there at the time were forced out and where they remain is a breeding ground for terrorism. I mean Hammas ARE terrorists and extremists, no-one can deny it, but nor can we deny the Palestinians were wronged.

I was a US Army military police officer stationed in Germany when 9/11 terrorist attack happened. The local Germans living near the base responded with nothing but sympathy and kindness. This didn't last forever of course, because US foreign policy was not popular there. But no one blamed the US, no one started banging on about whether we brought it on ourselves, in the days following the attack. No one stated the US shouldn't exist. Except the terrorists. Same with 7/7 attacks and Manchester bombing. So I find this thread, at this time, in poor taste, if not antisemitic.

Similar to this attack, there were pro Palestinian/anti US protests around the world after 9/11 but these were generally regarded with shock and disgust among westerners. Unlike now where some elements are lauding this as decolonisation. The BBC has paid no attention to the anti Israeli mobs in various locations, holding placards with antisemitic threats. The BBC still refuses to call Hamas terrorists, stating that would be taking sides. If the sickening savagery of this attack is not terrorism, then I don't know what is. (Oddly enough, if you do a search on the BBC website there are other examples of them referring to both groups and individuals with the term terrorist. So what's different about Saturday's attack?)

You might wonder where I'm going with this and, I know, I know, you're against Hamas. But this thread contains a lot of victim blaming, a lot of ignorance about the prevalence of anti-Semitism. I lived in London for 13 years and during that time I was asked about a dozen times if I'm Jewish. By strangers and not in a kindly way. As it happens I'm not Jewish, but I guess I have what you might call a stereotypical 'look'. This experience taught me that anti Semitism is rife in this country. You might have considered the sensitivity of the timing of this thread.

I, for one, believe Israel has a right to exist. It is the only democracy in the middle east. It is surrounded by neighbours that hate Jews. If Israel gave up and disarmed, it's neighbours would obliterate it. That doesn't mean I think it's actions are without any blame. But the antisemitism Vs anti zionism discussion is a bit of a sideshow distraction that plays into the hands of terrorists.

Isreal gets a lot of attention because it is supposed to be a civilised, demographic country. But it breaks international law and gets away with it and has the support of the US ect… so people find that particularly horrific. The Chinese government commit so many horrific human rights abuses and they are critized all the time. I know not specifically about that issue but you would rarely read anything positive about them.

You might wonder where I'm going with this

I’m still none the wiser tbh

@BromCavMum

I agree with you completely. Imagine, in the wake of this tragedy against Israel to actually start a thread complaining that Jews get cross when you say their country shouldn't even exist.

The topic has arisen because barbaric, depraved, islamic extremists who make the Taliban look respectful have just enacted one of the worst and most depraved terrorist acts I have ever seen on hundreds of completely innocent civilians.

And the premise of this thread in light of that is "Am I being unreasonable to tell Jews I don't think they have a right to a country and that the idea of them even expecting the same right I, or Palestinians have makes them genocidal (not the people actually trying to do the genocide)"

Add onto that the number of non Jews who have come here to tell Jews, and the hundreds of scholars who drafted the jersusalem declaration is that our idea of antisemitism doesn't actually matter and they will jolly well decide it for themselves.

Sorry. I am calling it - these people are antisemites. There's no other possible explanation for the behavior. And they all need to urgently go on an antisemitism awareness course.

What is particularly telling is that each one of them indicates they have a broad experience of being accused of antisemitism and denying it. I have to say, id only be have to be told more than once that I was being racist and then I'd bloody well educate myself rather than telling the victims of my prejudice that the real problem was them

Add onto that the number of non Jews who have come here to tell Jews, and the hundreds of scholars who drafted the jersusalem declaration is that our idea of antisemitism doesn't actually matter and they will jolly well decide it for themselves

I don’t think anyone has actually said that have they?

@Defiantjazz

More or less yes. This is one post:

So no, just because a Jewish person tells me I'm antisemitic because I'm anti Zionist, then no, I don't feel I'm obliged to accept that as fact

That particular poster has made clear they wouldn't know antisemitism if it jumped her in the shower in an SS uniform to be fair.

Not to mention the chuptzpah really of the entire thread "people don't actually understand what antisemitism is". From a non Jew, and my "people" she presumably means the victims (Jews).

Mayeb she was hoping to teach us what it was so we will understand in future 🙄

I mean the quote is correct. It's not a fact that she's anti Semitic because she's anti Zionist. I haven't read the thread so she could be both. But she could also simply be against the Israeli's illegal occupation and oppression of Palestine.

From what I've seen You've basically spent the entire thread heavily implying that people who are anti Zionist are Anti Semitists for disagreeing with Israeli policy because the person writing the policy is Jewish. That's not what anti semitism is. And that is a fact.

Not to mention the chuptzpah really of the entire thread "people don't actually understand what antisemitism is". From a non Jew, and my "people" she presumably means the victims (Jews)

As I said earlier you do often get accused of antisemitism if you criticise Israel in any way and no you don’t have to be be going on about global conspiracy’s or brandying the word genocide about to goad. Just pointing out there’s violence/wrong doing from both sides seems to be enough.

A lot of people seem to think that means you’re secretly siding with Hammas and think Israel shouldn't exist.

That would also fall under anti Zionism. Because Israeli governments current policy have been created in line with their modern Zionist ideology

However I'm familiar with the creation of Israel and the exodus of Jewish people after WW2 which is why I'm solely against the modern political Zionist ideology, including the oppression of Palestine. I take no issue with Zionism in the context of creating a homeland for Jewish people. I'd want a safe homeland after centuries of oppression too. I also understand the religious significance of being in Israel

Thank you for your posts @Fruitandclottedcream, FWIW I think they are generally very considered. While I strongly disagree with some of your comments though, I think you touched upon the biggest part of the problem here, which is the interpretation of 'Zionist'. Many Jewish people see Zionism as nothing more than the creation and existence of a homeland for Jews, a place where they can live a life safe from persecution. Ideologically-speaking it's very much wrapped up in the context of the immediate post-Holocaust period. That's how I interpret Zionism anyway. But I also see Israel as somewhere where Jews can go to today in order to escape current antisemitism. (Do I agree with aggressive Israeli expansion into Palestinian land? No, I don't). I'm ethnically Jewish and although from the UK I'm also half-French, and can tell you there has been a mass exodus of Jews from France to Israel over the last 10 years due to increased antisemitic hate crimes and violence. So for many, the Zionist state is just interpreted as nothing more than a place of safety should we need it.

On the other hand, many non-Jews use the term Zionism to mean what you've termed "the modern political Zionist ideology", which, with the current Israeli PM is supremacist and racist. FWIW I despise Netanyahu and so do all British Jews that I know, although I don't think we should have to keep declaring this. Anti-Zionist therefore means different things to different people. However that being said, "Zionist" for many others, particularly antisemites on the far left, use the word simply as code for "Jew". It is also wrapped up in anti-imperialism ideology and often anti-globalist conspiracy theories. These people on the far left are different from the more-explicit antisemites of the far right, and know how to disguise their prejudice towards Jews at best, visceral hatred at worst. This is quite easy to identify, particularly on social media timelines of people who display a fanatical, obsessive hatred of Israel - frequently Corbyn loyalists - who never have one word to say about Syria, China or Russia, etc. So obviously when someone proudly declares themselves a staunch anti-Zionist, we're going to be wary. Being on the left doesn't automatically give people anti-racism credentials (how many times do we need to hear "lifelong antiracist" from people who are anything but). This has been very hard for many of us, especially because historically, Jews have been a very socialist and left-leaning group of people. And I can tell you it is beyond galling to have non-Jews downplay experiences of antisemitism or tell you that you're just making it up, imagining it or using it as a "smear".

What particularly scares me though is that Jews are an incredibly tiny group in the UK, which makes us feel incredibly vulnerable. It's very hard to try and blot out the fact that increasingly people are becoming more brazen in displaying hostility towards us, and like nothing more than to bait us and hold us to account for the actions of a barbaric, right wing government in another country. Or for Labour losing an election. For the first time in my life this week I am scared that the situation for Jews in the UK (which has become more polarised and intolerant in general) is going to deteriorate to the extent that I might want to leave the country I grew up in. But where to go? Move my non-Jewish DH and family to France (which is only marginally better than the UK at the moment)? Or Israel, where I literally have zero connections or attachment, and which is anything but safe? I'm not religious nor am I culturally Jewish, so I can only imagine how much more frightened British people more active in the Jewish community feel.

Sorry for the long post.

@Fruitandclottedcream You seem very clear what anti semitism is and is not. What what qualifies you to make that statement? Your ethnic background - when clearly not Jewish - does not make you any more understanding of anti semitism, so I assume you have a detailed understanding of the history of Judaism.

Unless someone comes onto this board and says something such as “Jews are the cause of our troubles”, then you are going to have a devil of a job determining whether or not they are antisemitic.

Criticising the brutality of Israel or saying that the creation of the Jewish state was a bad idea, are not in themselves antisemitic, though of course such things could and probably would be said by an antisemite. Unfortunately, the accusation of antisemitism has been sprayed around on these chatboards willy-nilly, with very little evidence being presented for its actual existence.

Equally I don't think people understand the difference between Palestinians and Hamas in this current conflict:

not even an acknowledgement that Palestinian leaders are publicly and vocally committed to the obliteration of Israel and the extermination of the Jews.

You clearly stopped reading my post as soon as I challenged your world view because I literally comdemned Hamas behaviour in the last part of my post. I would argue that even if I didn't specifically mention every single Palestinian leader... condemning the attacks against Israeli citizens is a really REALLY clear sign I strongly disagree with the fact that some Palestinian groups want to exterminate Jews. Forgive me for assuming a grown adult could infer that from a statement saying I condemn the actions of Hamas.

It does seem that way, doesn't it? Shame, I was interested to hear their answers