To think people don't actually understand the difference between Anti Zionism and Anti-Semetism in the context of the current conflict?

[Fruitandclottedcream]

Every time someone criticises the Israeli State or Zionism ideology, there is always someone who comments shouting about Anti-Semitism and how anyone who questions, criticises or condemns Israel's behaviour is Anti-Semitic. And it's really annoying because it's not true.

The definition of Anti-Semitism is "Prejudice or Hostility towards Jewish people".

Anti-Zionism in the context of the ongoing conflict between Israel and Palestine is being opposed to Israel's decades long oppression, genocide and apartheid of Palestinians. Including but not limited to leaving people stateless, giving Palestinians less rights than Israelis and creating the open air prison that is Gaza, depriving the people there of water, electricity and food, and bombing relentlessly while not giving anyone a way to escape.

Plenty of Jewish people practice their faith, but are anti Zionist and condemn what the Israeli government are doing.

And plenty of Zionists are Anti-Semites, but support the behaviour of the Israeli government (including a decent chunk of British MPs according to Google)

Disclaimer before anyone jumps on me: I absolutely condemn and despise Hamas and their actions. I've not mentioned them as they're not relevant to my point.

Is it any wonder people remain ignorant of these things? I've had several questions about the current Isreali situation and been unable to find out online, but if I asked on a thread, I'd be torn a new arsehole for being naive and ignorant and possible anti-semitic.

So I don't ask and remain ignorant. It's not helpful if people are genuinley trying to make sense of the situation.

Yes we have agreed that some people feel it’s acceptable to “tell” a Jewish person why you believe being anti Zionist isn’t anti semitic. However, that’s not answering the question. Would you tell someone from another race what is and is not racist?

Just to say, I am in no way calling you racist or even that you would be. I am saying that It is not your place to speak for a group of people for whom you are not a part. Let people speak for themselves.

You wouldn’t be torn if you genuinely asked a question in a non judgemental way. Education on this long and complex political history is important. It is impossible for people to know everything about every situation. Nobody expects it.

So you don't think the state of Israel should exist.

Someone telling you which political position you must take to avoid being seen by them as racist seems very off to me.

Manipulative

It's hard to ask questions in a none judgemental way when people are looking for and assuming "if you are not for me you are against me "

I'm not Jewish but consider that Zionist is an adult political philosophy whereas one's race and religion are something one has no choice about and should be a matter of pride. Unfortunately the Zionists use the Jewish people as human shields and it's disgusting

Happens regularly on MN. Lots of examples throughout, although many have been deleted

Well I've just learnt something. I thought both phrases meant the same.

So loosely speaking -
Anti semitic - hostile/hating Jewish people
Anti zionist - hostile/hating the creation and/or the state of Israel ?? ?

So what is the word for hostile/hate for the Israeli government's policy for the collective punishment of civilians (a war crime) that they have decided on? Because I think that is the position where most people have been posting from. Not the other two.

I am Jewish and I agree with every word you said. On Monday I said to my 2 sons, aged 13 and 11 ‘do any of your friends know we are Jewish?’ They both said that they had brought it up at various points in religious classes at school out of interest. I told them that historically some jews
in secular societies never mention it because it means we can be targeted and they should not worry for now but they should probably keep this info as family business.

I can see the confusion. A selection of dictionary definitions of Zionism say

"an international movement originally for the establishment of a Jewish national or religious community in Palestine and later for the support of modern Israel"

So I can see why people would think that anti-zionism would be being against the establishment and support of Israel and could find that anti-Jewish/semitic.

It is appropriate to say that it is perfectly possible people can have a problem with the Israeli government and not be remotely racist and be quite happy criticise China and Hamas and the US and the UK for human rights violations and the attempt to santitise/justify them for whatever reason.

And no they shouldn't shut up because it's a sensitive subject or because they have 'the wrong' cultural heritage.

I take issue with one group stating they have this superior morality and status over any subject. They have something valid to say that others do not, but this must be a conversation which includes a range of different people and backgrounds - otherwise the position itself comes from a place of potential racism.

It's all about plurality.

As an occupation, no. The Jewish people when deciding on a homeland country had other options that did not involve displacing people and violating their human rights.

@48Times11 I also tend to keep the fact that I am Jewish quiet. I am secular and only celebrate Passover/Rosh Hashanah/Chanukah culturally, but it is always a worry that the wrong person will "find out". My family was targeted in the past when I was a teen, as my parents were teachers and one of my mom's students turned out to be not only a crappy human being, but an anti-Semite. I have held my cards close to my chest since then.

Tell us about those other places. Do you mean birobidzhan? Do you mean harbin? Do you mean the Kimberley’s? Go on tell us if you know so much. Tell us about how they did not have to displace others and the geo political background to some of those places.

IMO there’s still a lot of ‘undercover’ anti-semitism in the U.K., and hostility towards Israel because of the Palestinians, has been a handy cover for it. Whether anyone actually gives much of a shit about the Palestinians or not.

You only have to read some Victorian novels to see how mainstream anti-Jewish sentiment was - so many mentions in the novels of Trollope*, just for a start. And I don’t think it’s ever gone away as much as we (or many of us) would like to think.

*Though to be fair, he did also depict changing attitudes, and portrayed one Jewish man who was going to marry a socialite, but broke it off - and was shown to be by far the most laudable character of the two.

You think Jewish people hold power over non-Jews? In what way?

Every race can be racist and every race can be subject to racism. If you pigeon hole discussions around race and ban anyone from being party to the discussion or voicing their experiences you are, by default, being racist.

Jews are not one homogeneous mass of people, there are many different sects among them. Some are ethnically but not religiously Jewish, others are orthodox others more secular. You cannot speak for Jewish people en masse.

What you can do is not dehumanise or other people which is what a lot of antisemitic people attempt to do by poorly disguising their views as anti Zionism.

I came here to comment but @CoughingMajoress has done a much better job than I could have. Basically, this.

Right, so toy want the entire country if Israel to just up and move to...somewhere.

But don't you see that failing to condemn Hamas when you rightfully condemn other terrorists IS anti-Semitic? It can be nothing else.

There’s plenty of anti Zionist Jews. A friend of mine is Jewish and has spent time volunteering in the West Bank. She’s not a believer in the right to settle.

I saw a video last night of an Orthodox NY Jew arguing with an American/Israeli Jew saying he shouldn’t be settling in Israel.

Every time someone criticises the Israeli State or Zionism ideology, there is always someone who comments shouting about Anti-Semitism and how anyone who questions, criticises or condemns Israel's behaviour is Anti-Semitic. And it's really annoying because it's not true

Your language here is jumbled. I criticise my husband sometimes. I am not ANTI my husband. Criticism is one thing, being ANTI something means you are against it entirely.

Anti-Zionism in the context of the ongoing conflict between Israel and Palestine is being opposed to Israel's decades long oppression, genocide and apartheid of Palestinians

No it's not.

Being opposed to any of those things is being exactly that. If you have decided zionism means oppression, genocide and apartheid then you are creating your own meaning of that word.

What it actually means is a belief in the return of the Jewish people to their homeland and the resumption of Jewish sovereignty in the Land of Israel.

So if you are ANTI ZIONIST, then that is what you are against.
So if someone is "Anti Zionist" it means they do not think Jews should have Israel AT ALL. And this is Denying the right of Jews in the State of Israel to exist and flourish, collectively and individually, as Jews, in accordance with the principle of equality.Which I think is prejudice to Jews.The rest of the things you have wrote just show (sorry) that you have a lot of misinformation, biased information or half information. I will quickly correct it for you:You cannot complain that Israel oppresses Palestinians without acknowledging Palestinians are oppressed by their own governments. Gaza in particular in under rule of a group similar to the Taliban - so you're talking about Israel oppressing them seems to be missing a vital part of the story.Secondly, you're not taking into account that Palestinians were offered their own independence and peace and have always said "no". They were offered 80% of the land and said "no" and they have stated they will not accept Israel to exist at all. So if that is the status and their preferred course of action is terrorism, then oppression is inevitable. You cannot give people free movement and so on if they use it to try and kill you.There is also no genocide. That is simply not factual. The Palestinian population in Israel has doubled. Very few people are killed and if Israel had wanted genocide they could have easily taken it. Apartheid I don't know. Perhaps, but if Israel is an apartheid state - then so is Palestine and every other middle eastern state which ALL have different rules based on race, religion etc. and Israel is the only one that offers equal legal right. So these words seem misleading to me.Leaving people statelessIt was the Arab league that did this. They insisted no Palestinian be given citizenship (google it)Giving Palestinians less rights than Israelis'They don't, in Israel. Outside Israel of course non citizens do not have the same rights but when you really look into it, some of the rules are Israel being shits, and some of the rules are Israel keeping themselves safe. For example issuing travel permits and having a blockade was sadly proved completely necessary by Hamas' recent actions.Creating the open air prison that is GazaAgain unfair, these are rehearsed lines. These people have openly said their goal is to kill as many Jews as possible, and they have proved time and time again that they mean it. They were using boats and so on to get weapons from Iran, so unfortunately Israel has to keep itself safe. There is a border with Egypt, so the Egyptians should do more.Depriving the people there of water, electricityMeh. They ration it in accordance with the Oslo accords and they are kind of shits about it but at the same time it really isn't Israel's responsibility to sort the next door neighbours water and electric. We don't expect France to sort ours. Plenty of money has been provided for them to address these problems but sadly they spend all the aid money on terrorism. and foodAgain, they have been an independent country for 14 years and they have not sorted out agriculture. In fact Israel left them greenhouses for growing food and Hamas immediately looted them and took away jobs and opportunity for food for citizens. At what point, honestly, do you hold Hamas to account for this?and bombing relentlesslyIt is the other way around. Hamas started bombing Israel within 72 hours of them leaving.while not giving anyone a way to escapeAgain, unfair. They can "escape" - there is a border with Egypt - off they go. What they can't do is bring weapons or terrorists into Israel and that's fair enough. They need to stop doing that if they want to be able to move around again.

Plenty of Jewish people practice their faith, but are anti Zionist and condemn what the Israeli government are doing

So, politely, I think you have very biased and unfair views of the real picture of things and also that you have created a really awful meaning for zionism which isn't what it means.

@PurpleChrayne there is a massive difference between failing to call Hamas terrorists and saying that anti Zionist equates to antisemitic. In fact I'd call you Islamophobic for even saying it.