Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think people don't actually understand the difference between Anti Zionism and Anti-Semetism in the context of the current conflict?

540 replies

Fruitandclottedcream · 11/10/2023 09:40

Every time someone criticises the Israeli State or Zionism ideology, there is always someone who comments shouting about Anti-Semitism and how anyone who questions, criticises or condemns Israel's behaviour is Anti-Semitic. And it's really annoying because it's not true.

The definition of Anti-Semitism is "Prejudice or Hostility towards Jewish people".

Anti-Zionism in the context of the ongoing conflict between Israel and Palestine is being opposed to Israel's decades long oppression, genocide and apartheid of Palestinians. Including but not limited to leaving people stateless, giving Palestinians less rights than Israelis and creating the open air prison that is Gaza, depriving the people there of water, electricity and food, and bombing relentlessly while not giving anyone a way to escape.

Plenty of Jewish people practice their faith, but are anti Zionist and condemn what the Israeli government are doing.

And plenty of Zionists are Anti-Semites, but support the behaviour of the Israeli government (including a decent chunk of British MPs according to Google)

Disclaimer before anyone jumps on me: I absolutely condemn and despise Hamas and their actions. I've not mentioned them as they're not relevant to my point.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
Moglet4 · 25/11/2023 00:15

MyrrAgain · 11/10/2023 14:44

👆 this totally. If you read nothing else please read this 👆
It should be printed out and hung on the wall.

Why? It’s unbelievably rude and assumptive. Whilst a lot of what this says is true, it’s certainly not complete truth. For starters, people are absolutely entitled to have an opinion - conflicts like these affect all of us, particularly when our governments pick sides and get actively involved. Secondly, not everyone is an ignoramus. To say the plight of the Bedouin and the Uyghurs has not been brought to the attention of the literate public is patently false. Alongside Amnesty International, the mainstream media, including the likes of the Guardian, Al Jazeera, Le Monde etc have drawn attention to the atrocities. Perhaps it’s those who are a little removed who can actually take a more balanced, critical view.

TrishIsMySpiritAnimal · 25/11/2023 00:33

CoughingMajoress · 11/10/2023 13:24

If you aren't Jewish just shut up. It's not appropriate for people who aren't minorities to lecture to minorities about what is and isn't racism.

Society is generally very poorly educated and bad about recognising antisemitism because a lot of antisemitism is insidious and uses propaganda and stereotypes, in ways society doesn't always recognise as damaging. For example, one of the most dangerous stereotypes about Jews is that we're money grubbing and I've had a lot of people not understand why that's a bad thing, because "surely being good with money is a good thing?" But to understand why this trope exists and why it's so dangerous, requires understanding literally centuries of Jewish history. This stereotype IS very very dangerous and it's literally been used to justify multiple genocides. After the Treaty of Versailles, the German government weaponised this stereotype via massive propaganda campaigns to blame Germany's poverty on Jews hoarding the money, rather than acknowledge their own responsibility for the huge financial penalties forced upon Germany after WWI; that propaganda campaign (which would not have existed if not for centuries of Jews being cast as money grubbing, a stereotype that goes back to the era when Jews were forced into jobs as money lenders, then penalised by Medieval Christians for the jobs they'd forced Jews into) very directly led to the Holocaust.

And I bet anything someone will come along in a minute and accuse me of being yet another Jew who won't stop blathering about the Holocaust.

There's a huge amount of antisemitism wrapped up in antizionism, and a lot of people frankly don't give a fuck about Palestine and are just using it to have a pop at Jews.

Every Jewish person is expected to have an opinion on Israel, is held responsible for Israel, there's been a big wave of antisemitic attacks in the UK over the past few days, in a way that would never happen in any similar situation. The Chinese government literally have concentration camps were religious minorities are tortured and mass murdered (including being killed to order for the illegal organ trade) and it gets almost zero media attention and no Chinese person in the UK would be judged or asked their opinion about the actions of their government, yet Jews - many of whom have no connection to Israel - don't get the same grace.

That's why so much antizionism is antisemitic.

And yet you can't talk about Israel without understanding the history of how Israel was created, and how it's been used as a weapon by geopolitical forces (eg the way the US and USSR used the Middle East as a staging ground for proxy war during the Cold War, or how the USA is using Israel to prevent the Middle East from becoming one big Islamic fundamentalist superstate, or how the US is using Israel as a tactical intelligence centre in the Middle East and how this relates to oil wealth, or how the US religious right extremists support Israel because of Biblical Literalism which is not exactly Jewish-friendly) and how much Jews have been abused and exploited in that process. Israel was created because Europe wanted to get rid of all the Jews after WWII, and not give back all the land and wealth that was stolen from European Jews during the war. I mean Israel was nearly in Uganda for God's sake, no one cared about Jewish people, only getting rid of them.

And people don't understand just how minuscule a minority we are. Jews make up just 0.2% of the world's population. Muslims make up 24% of the world's population, and Christians make up 31%. That is an INSANE disparity.

Plus, Jews only have one single miniscule country to call our own where we can be safe (after centuries of non-stop persecution and multiple genocides). There are nearly FIFTY Muslim countries, and many of those countries are extremely wealthy and could protect and home the entire population of Palestine if they wanted to. The rest of the Arab world has either turned its back on Palestine, or is (in the case of Iran) actively bombing infrastructure in Gaza and funding terrorism that will actively harm Palestinians because Iran wants to kill all Jews, and doesn't care how many Palestinians are hurt or killed in the process.

I'm not defending the actions of the Israeli government, no one I know agrees with the violent oppression and apartheid of the current government. Everyone I know has serious concerns about Israel's swing to the far right and the growing power the ultra-religious have in Israeli politics. And this systemic violent oppression is not just of the Palestinians, but of minority groups within Israel, such as Israeli Bedouin. Systemic violent oppression of Israeli Bedouin by the Israeli government is just as bad, yet somehow the world media don't give the tiniest shit. Most people outside Israel have never even heard of this! And that raises the question, why is the plight of some oppressed people (like Palestinians) a massive worldwide issue, while the plight of other equally oppressed people (like Bedouin, or Muslim Uyghurs in China) goes totally ignored? What political agenda is being served by this cherry picking?

AMAZING post 👏🏼 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼

Anti-semitism is alive and well just 80 years after 6 million Jews were wiped from the planet. British Jews being expected to take some responsibility for the Israeli government is bonkers and anti-Semitic. Why not blame Zionism on those who forced Jews out their countries rather than the people who after seeing their friends and families exterminated, wanted somewhere safe to live where they weren’t hated.

People have no idea at all how scary it is to be Jewish in this day and age and they have NO idea about the history and politics of anti-semitism.

Sweden99 · 07/03/2024 11:01

@CoughingMajoress, I have been accused of anti-semitism a couple of times. Neither time was I aware that the person whose essay or actions I was criticising was Jewish. But, I was seem as an uppity Northern prole.
I very much agree there is anti-Jewish racism and I think (I am not authority) that there is value is in that term. The term "anti-semitism" has largely been hijacked by a lot of snobs and racists. I was very skeptical of anti-semitism with Corbyn simply as my personal experience of the term was it being used by anti-muslim racists and snobs. That was my error, but it was also bona fide and I am not the only one is suspect.

Newbutoldfather · 07/03/2024 11:58

I am Jewish and I don’t agree that criticising current Israeli policy is antisemitic.

My personal view here is that disputing the right of Israel to exist is antisemitic, especially if it is the only country whose existence you repeatedly and aggressively question.

I think Israel’s existence is vital, but their current behaviour is not actually positive, even considering it very narrowly from a Jewish perspective. The ethnic cleansing (which I think is fair to say, although genocide isn’t) of civilians from northern Gaza is not the correct solution, and nor is trying to illegally settle the occupied territories or tolerating illegal behaviour from settlers to Palestinians (see the uk, us and European sanctions on certain settlers).

I don’t agree that only minorities can define racism. All of society should discuss this. Otherwise it just becomes a shouting match between Islamophobia and Antisemitism.

Newbutoldfather · 07/03/2024 12:06

@Sweden99 ,

Antisemitism is an important term and it needs to remain.

What happened in the Shoah (holocaust) was unique historically and it isn’t that long ago (both my parents were alive then, although one was very young).

I don’t like the way holocaust Memorial Day has been diluted away from the Shoah to ‘holocausts’ in general. Jews have earned their one Memorial Day a year.

But, having said all the above, and believing strongly that all Hamas terrorists deserve to be destroyed, I think Israel is going about it the wrong way and allowing anger to determine policy, understandable but nonetheless unacceptable.

There also seems to be a land grab going on in the West Bank.

For Israel itself to be what most of global Jewry want it to be, they need to find sn internationally guaranteed two state solution.

qunari · 07/03/2024 14:15

Sweden99 · 07/03/2024 11:01

@CoughingMajoress, I have been accused of anti-semitism a couple of times. Neither time was I aware that the person whose essay or actions I was criticising was Jewish. But, I was seem as an uppity Northern prole.
I very much agree there is anti-Jewish racism and I think (I am not authority) that there is value is in that term. The term "anti-semitism" has largely been hijacked by a lot of snobs and racists. I was very skeptical of anti-semitism with Corbyn simply as my personal experience of the term was it being used by anti-muslim racists and snobs. That was my error, but it was also bona fide and I am not the only one is suspect.

Did you actually just dredge up a four month old thread just to complain that you don't think the term anti-Semitism should be used because it's only used by racists and snobs? Because if multiple people are calling you anti-Semitic the only possibly reason is that they - and by extension anyone who complains about anti-Semitism - is the real racist.

My whole life the term Zionist has been used as a dogwhistle. People talking about how Zionists control the banks and the media and the entertainment industry. About how Zionists only care about money. About how Zionist killed Jesus and started world wars and caused 9/11. Posting cartoons of Zionists with large noses dressed as Rabbis acting as puppetmasters. We all knew what they meant. But suddenly the distinction is always there and always the most important thing ever.

fliptopbin · 07/03/2024 15:05

I am come to the conclusion that your average Brit cannot bring anything useful to the debate and it is arrogant to assume that our opinion would be of any interest to anyone.
Social media makes everyone feel like an armchair commentator on everything, and as if our opinions actually matter to anybody
Newsflash, they don't. So on contentious issues, the best thing to do is STFU because that means you won't insult anyone or make a tit of yourself. Spend the time that you would spend deluding yourself that your opinion is important educating yourself, and show a bit of humility.

WhileMyDishwasherGentlyWeeps · 07/03/2024 15:11

fliptopbin · 07/03/2024 15:05

I am come to the conclusion that your average Brit cannot bring anything useful to the debate and it is arrogant to assume that our opinion would be of any interest to anyone.
Social media makes everyone feel like an armchair commentator on everything, and as if our opinions actually matter to anybody
Newsflash, they don't. So on contentious issues, the best thing to do is STFU because that means you won't insult anyone or make a tit of yourself. Spend the time that you would spend deluding yourself that your opinion is important educating yourself, and show a bit of humility.

Okey-dokey. And where do you stand on the issue?

Sweden99 · 07/03/2024 15:13

qunari · 07/03/2024 14:15

Did you actually just dredge up a four month old thread just to complain that you don't think the term anti-Semitism should be used because it's only used by racists and snobs? Because if multiple people are calling you anti-Semitic the only possibly reason is that they - and by extension anyone who complains about anti-Semitism - is the real racist.

My whole life the term Zionist has been used as a dogwhistle. People talking about how Zionists control the banks and the media and the entertainment industry. About how Zionists only care about money. About how Zionist killed Jesus and started world wars and caused 9/11. Posting cartoons of Zionists with large noses dressed as Rabbis acting as puppetmasters. We all knew what they meant. But suddenly the distinction is always there and always the most important thing ever.

No, that was my fault. Sorry, I clicked through to it and did not realise it had been put to rest.
Sorry.

fliptopbin · 07/03/2024 17:00

WhileMyDishwasherGentlyWeeps · 07/03/2024 15:11

Okey-dokey. And where do you stand on the issue?

I wouldn't share my opinion, as I don't think that the opinion of a pleb like me who doesn't have a detailed grasp of this complex issue is of any use to the debate.
Obviously I wish the violence would stop, and my thoughts are with the civilians being killed on both sides, but I dont have a solution to it. I wish I did.

Viragok · 07/03/2024 17:58

LemonyTicket · 14/10/2023 18:04

I posted earlier to the OP that the definition of zionism is basically the belief in a Jewish homeland in Israel. And opposition to that idea might be fine if you have an actual, cogent, alternative ideology by which you think people should live in the principles of equality.

For example: a person might argue there is no need for a specifically Jewish state, and a multicultural state should be formed for both Jewish / Muslim persons with equal rights of immigration and so on. Of course, they would need to get the Palestinians to agree to that, and find a way to deal with the fact that these two groups have completely opposed laws, ideals, value systems and so on. But nevertheless, it's a valid argument that isn't antisemitic.

So I do not believe anti Zionism is always antisemitic, although being anti Zionist is usually a result of already being antisemitic and it certainly fosters pernicious antisemitic ideals amongst the wider population, and I will explain why and how that works for anyone who is interested.

First of all, the word “Zionism,” resonates for many people as an expression of hope for Jewish survival and liberation. Zionism was conceived as a way for Jews to escape the oppression of antisemitism, in Europe, in Russia, and across the Middle East, and to live free, as other people live free. That isn't bad, is it?

Anyone who has read and knows the history (and I have posted extensively on it) knows they did not live free. Not anywhere. Not ever. But despite that being pretty reasonable and in no way related to racism or wanting to dominate others, in our day the left has turned the word “Zionism” into an anti Jewish swear word which they have constructed to mean whatever they want it to mean.

So in effect, the left defines Jews' Zionism for them, against their will, and without discussing it with them. It defines Zionism as racism and as support for apartheid. In so doing it defines most Jews against their will, as not decent human beings like the rest of humanity.

Then a few unusual Jews - religious extremists or hard left extremists - who are are willing to take on this same erroneous meaning are presented as evidence that this is entirely correct. They are then classified as “exceptional Jews” who are willing to denounce Israel and Zionism. And Jews on the wider picture are put in a position where unless they agree with this distorted definition of Zionism and denounce most of their kin, they are bad people.

It becomes a creator of antisemitism when "anti Zionism" takes on the modern left's new definition of what Zionism even means and that becomes propagated and associated with most Jews. People who are hostile to Zionism have given the word "Zionism" a meaning that reflects their own hostility rather than the actual meaning of the word to the people whom it describes. The OP, for example said she thought it meant "genocide". Tt certainly doesn't mean that to the people who are Zionists but if everyone defines them as that, then the damage is done.

Anti Zionism is common amongst the modern left because it is based on what the Marxists see as an “idealist” system of living - equality and so on. It understands Israel as the manifestation of racist ideology (that Jews have an ethno state because they think they are superior), rather than it being a result of the material reality (that the history proved that Jews were actually unable to life in this "idealistic" world without being ritually killed and subjugated).

In the leftie mind, "Zionism" must be racism because a country that is majority Jewish and that is not a state for all its citizens past and present, must be racist. It figures that the state prioritises the rights of Jews, on the basis of their ethnicity or religion, over those of non-Jewish origin must be racist and bad. They dismiss entirely that for the last 700 years (including now) that the same applies to every Muslim state on the planet. It dismisses the reality that Jews lived for 600 years as Dhimmi (which truly is apartheid) and under constant threat of death.

That blatant double standard is justified with the idea that Israel should not exist anyway, as it was founded on the settler-colonial theft of land, which rightly belongs to “indigenous” Palestinians. They don't consider the possibility that Jews are also indigenous, or that Arabs may be migrants (a lot are).

It fixates on the idea that there are many Palestinians who are now not living where there families lived 100 years ago. But Jews today do not live where their families lived 100 years ago. Their families did not choose to move but were exiled or had to run away from certain death. Most of them did not choose where to go, they went where they would be allowed to go (which was practically impossible to find). That is also dismissed as whataboutery.

The left propagates an idea of Israeli immigrants as again, terribly evil, but it ignores the fact that Jews are a tiny, tiny world minority and hence even those of European recent ancestry are often connected to Israel by family. Wanting to commune together within norms of culture is normal humanity - not racism. People's around the world do this.

Most perniciously of all, the new definition of “Zionism” in the modern left's imagination frequently characterises Jews as participating in dishonest global networks, conspiracies of lies and propaganda, in their own selfish interest. The idea of a "Israel lobby", controlling the world and policing what we say in order to allow them to continue being racist toerags without criticism. Even regular British Jews are accused each day of being part of this nefarious scheme.

So really modern "anti Zionism" often has little to do with proposing equality and multicultural ways of living together in equality. It more often that not targets solely Jews as underserving of freedom and safety from more dominant groups, and re-definitely their perfectly understandable hopes for the things all others take for granted as an expression of their negative characteristics.

So "Zionists" become a kind of evil sub set of people, and by portraying the overwhelming majority of Jews in the world as the enemies of all that is good, anti Zionism brings back to life the general idea that most Jews are "bad". The idea of most Jews as the “enemy of the people” is re-ignited. Which really was (I hoped) an ideology that I thought was stamped out after the Holocaust.

So anti Zionism in and of itself it's anti semitic. If it has a logical basis. But certainly the way the modern left goes about it is based on very antisemitic ideas and reignites a lot of most antisemitic myths and ideas history has seen. Which makes me very sad. I should not to be made to feel ashamed for being a "Zionist" because a few socialists have redefined this lovely word that is essentially based on peace and justice to mean something they have made up entirely.

And note: I am a socialist, so this has been doubly hard to endure.

I'm glad this thread has been resurrected in a way because it meant I could read Lemony's amazing post - thanks for this, so eloquent and brilliant. I wish I could memorise it and quote it back at people.

Valeriekat · 08/03/2024 06:30

FatherJackHackettsUnderpantsHamper · 11/10/2023 10:01

Also, purely semantically speaking, the Semitic peoples extended to far more than just Jewish people, including many Arabs too, so I don't understand why the term is widely used rather than the much clearer 'anti-Jewish'.

Unless I'm missing something big here, wouldn't it have been like the British calling the Nazis fighting against us 'anti-European'?

Not wanting to detract from focusing on and challenging any ingrained prejudice or hatred in any way, but I don't see why we would use a wide term to refer to just one sub-group that the term includes, when it quite probably also applies to many of the aggressors as well.

It only refers to Jews in common usage as you well know. Don't be disingenuous.

FatherJackHackettsUnderpantsHamper · 08/03/2024 14:39

Valeriekat · 08/03/2024 06:30

It only refers to Jews in common usage as you well know. Don't be disingenuous.

Yes, as my post made very clear in context ("purely semantically speaking"), of course I well know that the term has been in common usage for Jews only for some time now.

That is why, in a thread that was supposedly originally all about clarifying the usage of terms that could be ambiguous, contentious or potentially loaded, I made the point/asked the question that I did.

Unless you were deliberately trying to be obtuse or needlessly argumentative, I'm sure you will understand the point that I was making.

fliptopbin · 08/03/2024 23:54

It feels to me that there are some people pushing the narrative that if you do not agree with every action taken by Netanyahu then you are anti Semitic, and that if you condemn the attacks by Hamas that started this round of violence then you must be an islamaphobe.
Sorting out this mess will take some serious amd sensible diplomacy, and I cannot help being cynical about those people (and I include the media and politicians in this,) who are peddling this very simplistic taking of sides in what is a very complex issue.
But then, it often feels like nuanced debate is very much frowned on In the current climate, and has been replaced by a sense of "you're either with us or against us".

mollyfolk · 09/03/2024 01:28

It feels to me that there are some people pushing the narrative that if you do not agree with every action taken by Netanyahu then you are anti Semitic, and that if you condemn the attacks by Hamas that started this round of violence then you must be an islamaphobe

people here? Or people in general. I think that is a fairly simplistic view at this point. Is there a country left in the world who wholeheartedly supports Israel’s actions now? Probably not - the EU , the UK and the US supported Israel’s right to defend itself but now they are questioning the devastation, the humanitarian situation, the high death toll of ordinary civilians and the blatant disregard of international law. None of these countries support Hamas by any means.

New posts on this thread. Refresh page