To think people don't actually understand the difference between Anti Zionism and Anti-Semetism in the context of the current conflict?

[Fruitandclottedcream]

Every time someone criticises the Israeli State or Zionism ideology, there is always someone who comments shouting about Anti-Semitism and how anyone who questions, criticises or condemns Israel's behaviour is Anti-Semitic. And it's really annoying because it's not true.

The definition of Anti-Semitism is "Prejudice or Hostility towards Jewish people".

Anti-Zionism in the context of the ongoing conflict between Israel and Palestine is being opposed to Israel's decades long oppression, genocide and apartheid of Palestinians. Including but not limited to leaving people stateless, giving Palestinians less rights than Israelis and creating the open air prison that is Gaza, depriving the people there of water, electricity and food, and bombing relentlessly while not giving anyone a way to escape.

Plenty of Jewish people practice their faith, but are anti Zionist and condemn what the Israeli government are doing.

And plenty of Zionists are Anti-Semites, but support the behaviour of the Israeli government (including a decent chunk of British MPs according to Google)

Disclaimer before anyone jumps on me: I absolutely condemn and despise Hamas and their actions. I've not mentioned them as they're not relevant to my point.

What about" the Jewish person holds the power?" Or Jewish people should leave their homeland, which I'm guessing is what the poster is implying. Of course no one is going to come out and say "fuck the Jews", not without the post lasting more than five minutes. That's what dogwhistles are for.

You’ve had plenty of Jewish people on MN who have openly condemned the attacks on Gaza and who believe any harm caused to innocent, every day people is 100% abhorrent. I am one of those people. Please don’t pretend there hasn’t been a plethora of anti Jewish propaganda on here. It’s on this thread. Some is subtle, some is overt. Please listen to the people who say we see it on here and it’s not about zionism. I have given examples on this thread as have others.

Barak Ravid AT BarakRavid
BREAKING: Biden: I have known Bibi for 40 years and we have frank conversations. I told him that with all the anger and frustration it is important that Israel operates in Gaza according to the rules of war

Read between the diplomatic lines on this: the US government ARE concerned about how Israel are responding / going to respond.

Thats not as 'fully supportive' as you might expect from the US. There is a definite tone of worry and its certainly not giving a ringing endorsement of the Israeli government.

This ISN'T typical of any US administration.

The Jewish person holds the power

If this is in relation to what I said, then I did not make the above statement,you are twisting things to suit your narrative.

Hmm. Arabs come under the definition of Semite people. So if you criticise them aren't you being anti semetic?

Many of them are genuinely unaware that Jews lived in Israel all along. They think they started emigrating there after WW2 from Europe. Some of them think they started emigrating there from Europe before then as part of the Zionist movement.

Others think they shouldn't have been given a state because it would have either required the Arabs on that territory to either move to the Arab section, or to live under majority Jewish rule. They think that would have been something like genocide. I presume they believe that the Jews who were in the area all along should have agreed to live as a minority in the Arab state, which was to cover the entire territory. And Jews from Europe presumably shouldn't have been allowed to migrate there. Apparently some people are allowed to not appreciate the enriching diversity of immigration.

Teder wrote
"Please don’t pretend there hasn’t been a plethora of anti Jewish propaganda on here."

I've seen a lot of vehement anti-Israel propaganda on here.

I cannot be sure whether or not it comes from antisemites, .... neither I think, can you.

When "the enriching diversity of immigration" means that those who live there already get their human rights violated, then of course it is wrong. Please read into the Israeli policy. It has never been about Jews simply wanting a homeland to coexist peacefully. The whole raison d'etre of the policy is to subjugate the Palestinian population. As has been said numerous times, they were already living together before the occupation.

I do actually have a detailed understanding of Jewish history. I've spent a lot of time learning over the past several years because I strive to be anti racist, and part of anti racism is understanding Anti-Semitism. Which means becoming educated about Jewish Culture, Heritage and History.

Just above this post There's an excerpt of a previous comment of mine, detailing some of the history I'm familiar with. There's more detail in a much longer comment. I think it's on page 4 of this thread.

Yes you did, on page two of this thread.

What’s the point of this thread? I feel like OP you are making this about you when you and your opinions on this don’t matter in the slightest right now. Why are you doing that?

So once again what do you want to happen to Israel and where do you think the Jewish homeland should be?

There have been LOADS of threads deleted this evening - I promise you, there has been overt anti-Semitism, not just criticism of the Israeli government’s actions.

I don’t think MNHQ would delete multiple threads just for being insufficiently pro-Likud, do you?

I do think that concerns about the treatment of Palestinians is feeding antisemitism, as you say anti Israel and anti Zionism ends up just being anti Jew. I went to a very integrated grammar school in the 60s. In my city there was no Jewish senior school and very minimal provision for senior school places in Catholic schools so my school became the default school for Jewish and Catholic kids who passed the 11 plus, as time went on Muslim families also chose the school.

We had a Rabbi come in to do assembly for the Jewish girls every Friday, then the Imam came in for the Muslim girls. A Catholic teacher did assembly for us Catholic girls and every term the local priest came in an said mass in the school hall. I think it was very progressive and very good for good community relations
as we were all valued and our culture respected.

There is one thing I have never heard discussed and I don't know the answer but maybe someone on here does, did Israel pay compensation for seized houses/farms?

It does seem that way, doesn't it? Shame, I was interested to hear their answers

I don’t know why I bother sometimes.
can some people not read ?

As I said above, an equal, fair, just two state solution. Why are only Jews allowed a homeland? What about the displaced Palestinians, where is their homeland? Is it fair or just that they are often living in squalor in refugee camps because people who are Jewish by birth want to live in Israel? I'm asking a genuine question by the way. What is the solution for the Palestinian people? Because according to Israeli policy they don't deserve rights.

I need to address something, and also ask something - I call out any and all Anti-Semitism I see online and in person. I spot it and call it out because I've spent my time learning and educating myself.

However - Lots of comments on here imply or explicitly state, that because someone is non Jewish they cannot define what Anti Semitism is, because they simply can't understand it or know what it is if they're not Jewish themselves.

BUT if a non Jewish person doesn't identify and call anti semitic behaviour out, then they are accused of being supportive of and complicit of Anti Semitism, and considered someone who is harmful to Jewish people. Which implies non Jewish people can understand and define Anti Semetism

Which is it? It can't be both.

@evermean I said some would argue that the Jewish person holds the power. This is within the context of a Jew and non Jew. Of course it's completely plausible that a Jew can hold power over a non Jew. There are some very wealthy Jewish people in politics and/or business, for example. I think it would be antisemitic to say that Jews cannot be powerful. Do you think a Jewish member of Parliament holds less power than a wc man from Grimsby? The Israeli government (again, Jews) hold a lot more power than Palestinian Muslims or Christians. I am talking on individual cases here, not making blanket statement about Jews as a mass group holding power. I think that was very clear in my post.

Sashka wrote
"There have been LOADS of threads deleted this evening - I promise you, there has been overt anti-Semitism, not just criticism of the Israeli government’s actions.

That's disappointing. Why not let the threads stand and let the antisemites condemn themselves with their own prejudice ?
I'm sure there would be enough people who could tell them their views are unacceptable. If they persisted, they could be chucked off mumsnet. Deleting whole threads is hammer to crack a nut, some of them contained useful insights.

I stated an opinion in my original thread, and asked if anyone agrees. That's kind of the entire point of AIBU. If you're referring to me making it about me in the comments... If someone addresses me and asks me a question about my opinion or knowledge on a subject, then I'm hardly going to reply from someone else's perspective am I?

Your opinions don't matter either in the scheme of things. So Why are you commenting? What's the point?

How were the human rights of the Jews who lived there already violated by Jewish immigration? What do you mean 'the Israeli policy'? Lots of Jews wanted their own state. You're really claiming that all of them only wanted it so they could subjugate the Arabs?

I'm well aware they were living together for many centuries. For most of which the Jews were dhimmis. But you say that wasn't any motive for them to want their own state? Just to subjugate the Arabs? Sounds pretty sociopathic doesn't it? That's a lot of people being really evilly evil kind of Voldemort style!

It was not the slightest bit clear. Obviously an individual Jew can hold more power than an individual non-Jew, not a single person would deny that. But given how you were talking about how racism against Jewish people isn't the same as racism against other groups it was not clear you were not talking about whole group of people, especially considering the tropes about Jewish people in power that I'm sure you're aware of.

Please don't get forget those people of Arab origin

So you do think the state of Israel should exist? Make up your mind.

That would also fall under anti Zionism. Because Israeli governments current policy have been created in line with their modern Zionist ideology.

Thank you OP. If that is true then I'm in the weird position of being both for and against. I'm for a homeland (Israel) but against the present government’s plan on razing Palestine to the ground.