To think people don't actually understand the difference between Anti Zionism and Anti-Semetism in the context of the current conflict?

[Fruitandclottedcream]

Every time someone criticises the Israeli State or Zionism ideology, there is always someone who comments shouting about Anti-Semitism and how anyone who questions, criticises or condemns Israel's behaviour is Anti-Semitic. And it's really annoying because it's not true.

The definition of Anti-Semitism is "Prejudice or Hostility towards Jewish people".

Anti-Zionism in the context of the ongoing conflict between Israel and Palestine is being opposed to Israel's decades long oppression, genocide and apartheid of Palestinians. Including but not limited to leaving people stateless, giving Palestinians less rights than Israelis and creating the open air prison that is Gaza, depriving the people there of water, electricity and food, and bombing relentlessly while not giving anyone a way to escape.

Plenty of Jewish people practice their faith, but are anti Zionist and condemn what the Israeli government are doing.

And plenty of Zionists are Anti-Semites, but support the behaviour of the Israeli government (including a decent chunk of British MPs according to Google)

Disclaimer before anyone jumps on me: I absolutely condemn and despise Hamas and their actions. I've not mentioned them as they're not relevant to my point.

“They weren't relevent to my point. My point isn't about terrorist acts. My point is that anti Semitism is not inherently the same thing as Anti Zionism...” @Fruitandclottedcream I don’t disagree with you but people very quickly descend into anti semitism on these threads. It never takes very long…

Was the second paragraph in response to my post? If so then my spiteful dig was aimed the other way, at the people who quietly think those things about Jews but would never say as much in polite company. Sorry if I didn't make that clear.

It’s breathtakingly ignorant for people to say “oh we cannot criticise Israel” when people have alreadybegun with their spiteful digs about jews having power, skin colour (no we weren’t all white!) and how we need to remember the holocaust was 70 + years ago etc.

I know it wasn’t you who said it but “If you’re not Jewish shut up” probably wasn’t the best opening gambit.

Groups like hamas and people like @feralunderclass don't want Israel to stay inside those borders, they don't want it to exist at all.

@andtheworldrollson

But lemony if Israel has stayed within the original land bounds and let Palestine have land too then just perhaps we would have less trouble?

It would be morally the correct thing to do, but in terms of evidence, nothing they have ever done or not done has affected anything.

Just lost my post and cba to type it out again. @LemonyTicket your attitude of legitimising the ongoing human rights violations against Palestinians because their population is increasing is absolutely disgusting. You cannot look at anything objectively, you keep making the Israelis to be the victims.
Regarding a "homeland", in 2020 alone 20,000 Olim (Jewish immigrants) from 70 countries were granted permission to live in Israel due to the Right to Return policy. They might never have even been in the country, or had any connection to it. The Palestinians who were forced to leave in 1948 and 67 don't have any right to return. They have lived there for possibly thousands of years. Where is the fairness? Each year the number of Olim increases, and where do you think the land to build settlements for them to live on comes from? It is taken (illegally, contravening international law) from Palestinians.
The two state solution will never be agreed upon because the world knows it will never be fair and just.

Sorry no it wasn’t! It just reminded me that people often use it and it turns my stomach. I understand your post.

Society is generally very poorly educated and bad about recognising antisemitism because a lot of antisemitism is insidious and uses propaganda and stereotypes, in ways society doesn't always recognise as damaging.

A really important point to drive home everytime it comes up.

We're seeing the rise of Jewish hate again, clear as day, in the narrative being pumped out over this latest flare up of the conflict. Just look at the countless threads on here and on other platforms.

Look at the OP, words like "genocide" and "apartheid" bandied about to describe Israels actions and not even an acknowledgement that Palestinian leaders are publicly and vocally committed to the obliteration of Israel and the extermination of the Jews. You dismiss this out of hand as "not relevant" when it's anything but.

The complexity and history of the situation distilled down into a black and white output of Israel bad, Palestine poor defenceless victims.

It's not the fault of Palestinians or their leaders that they're living in these horrible conditions, no. It's has nothing to do with the fact they've refused any and all attempts at peace, initiated (and lost) several wars, and carried out countless indiscriminate attacks.

No, its the fault of those pesky Jews! For coming to where they don't belong (or rather aren't wanted) and trying make a life for themselves on Muslim land!

And make no mistake it is the Jews who are the target, the state of Israel, not Israel Arabs, not secular Israelis, not just Israeli Jews but, all any and all Jews.

Just look at where's being vandalised and attacked in the UK during the protests, it's synagogues and known Jewish schools and business. No mosques or Muslim businesses were attacked despite around 18% of Israel being Muslim. Do they not bear any responsibility for their governments actions? Nope, just the Jews.

Isn't it strange that Palestinians are seen as a completely separate entity from their governments but Jews the world over are responsible for the actions of the Israeli government?

You're right OP people don't know the difference between antisemitism and antizionism including you.

Kindly, you clearly have no idea what you are talking about. I was embarrassed reading your post.

I think sone people are too close to accept that people can despise the actions of both sides equally

Both sides it seems would be happy to see the annihilation of the other

It does make me particularly sad though that the Isreal government can't see that it's actions and words against Palestine are so like the horrible actions and words used against jews for ever.

The two state solution will never be agreed upon because the world knows it will never be fair and just.

So what's your preferred outcome?

Perpetual war?

Israel to take full control of the region and potentially allow Palestinians to live there as Israel citizens (as 1.6m currently do)?

Palestine to take full control of the region and complete their stated aim of killing or driving every Jew out of the holy land?

Please, enlighten me then. You're brave enough to make snide comments, be brave enough to tell me your own opinions.

Do 1.6 million live as full Israel citizens with exactly the same rights as the Jewish population ?

The two state solution will never be agreed upon because the world knows it will never be fair and just.

@feralunderclass
So what's your solution? What do you think should happen to the Jewish homeland? (Or "homeland" as you called it?) Or will you just keep avoiding the question, just like you've avoided saying what you meant when you said Jews are the ones with the power.

If for whatever reason Israel agreed with Hamas and handed over Gaza and Israel as a whole to the Palestinian people, what would happen to the Jewish population?

That poster dismissed that Jewish Brits and other Jews around the world have been at increased risk of physical and verbal attacks since the weekend and has the audacity to suggest you should be embarrassed?!

There is nothing kind about that individual at all.

There is apartheid in Israel. There are different sets of laws, rights and even courts depending what type of citizen you are. You have a car accident in the West Bank, as a Palestinian, it will be a military court, a Jew a civilian court. The freedom of movement is different, settlers easily cross any checkpoint, whereas Palestinians have 127 different types of permits. And access to resources, access to services, everything is based on apartheid, different rights for different people .

Could someone who claims to be anti-zionist please explain what you mean by that? Do you mean that eg Jews have no legitimate link to the land? Do you mean that Jews should now uproot and move elsewhere? And if so where to.
Thank you for any clarifications!

Thank you for this detailed explanation. It's useful.

I would say that historically I have thought about the Palestinian people and been concerned about their plight. But I've always struggled with how to weigh this up against other peoples and their issues, including the need for Jewish people to feel safe somewhere.

I think at its heart it is understanding that people matter and not allowing them to be weaponised by others.

I find it all very hard to balance as I am an atheist and cannot fathom anyone trying to connect me to a country due to a philosophical idea of a deity. I've lived all over the world and don't want to be considered alongside faith. It should be utterly irrelevant.

Such a waste of human life on both sides.

I genuinely didn't mean it in a snide way. No one has said this is "a Muslim land". This is not a Muslim/Jewish issue. It's a Palestinian issue. 50% of Palestinian Christians in the West Bank lost their homes and have been displaced. It is their homeland too, and they have no right to return.
In the UK Muslims are the most persecuted religious group (Home Office) and hate crimes against them increase every year (last year there was a 42% increase from the previous year). Attacks on mosques, Muslim owned businesses and homes are so frequent that they are normal,it isn't reported in the media unless it is a seriously violent attack.
Nobody said it was the fault of "the pesky Jews".
The two state solution would obviously be a massive compromise on the side of the Palestinians. They will never get their land or homes back, that they owned, that was unlawfully stolen. They will never have an equal criminal justice system. I believe (seeing as you asked for my opinion) that if a fair and just EQUAL two state was formed, where the penal law was applied universally and resources and rights distributed evenly, that the Palestinians would agree. They are tired, they want to live. They want their children to get an education. They want healthcare. 50% of Palestinian children have PTSD. This is not a life anyone wants. Israel will never agree to equality. Within their manifesto is the commitment to subjugate the Palestinians, and prevent their self determination.

I’m telling you there isn’t a Jewish person I know who thinks the atrocities in Gaza, the murders of innocent people and the human rights violations are anything other than horrifying.
Zionists and Jewish people are normal every day people - mothers, fathers, daughters, sons, friends and colleagues. They’re your nurse, your child’s teacher or your postman. Do you think we relish hearing that any child has been brutally killed?! No, 99.9999% are sickened. Like any group of people, you will come across psychopaths and sociopaths. They are disgusting examples of the human race anyway.

I believe so, from what I've read Israeli law treats all Israeli citizens, whether they are Jewish, Palestinian or something else ,as equals and a Palestinian Israeli can do anything a Jewish Israeli can do including voting and standing for election.

Of course some will experience discrimination and prejudice and no doubt there will be struvtutal injustice and bias in the system but that's present for any minority in any country.

There's a huge amount of antisemitism wrapped up in antizionism, and a lot of people frankly don't give a fuck about Palestine and are just using it to have a pop at Jews.

I think there is disbelief by some that yes some people actually care when people are subjected to horrific abuses. They just can't get their heads around the fact that some people actually see Palestinians as worthy people too.

To add to this, Jewish Israeli citizens are not necessarily religious Jews. A significant number lead secular, non religious lives. Those people are not treated differently to Jewish people who are highly religious.

I’m telling you there isn’t a Jewish person I know who thinks the atrocities in Gaza, the murders of innocent people and the human rights violations are anything other than horrifying.
Zionists and Jewish people are normal every day people - mothers, fathers, daughters, sons, friends and colleagues. They’re your nurse, your child’s teacher or your postman. Do you think we relish hearing that any child has been brutally killed?! No, 99.9999% are sickened. Like any group of people, you will come across psychopaths and sociopaths. They are disgusting examples of the human race anyway.