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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think people don't actually understand the difference between Anti Zionism and Anti-Semetism in the context of the current conflict?

540 replies

Fruitandclottedcream · 11/10/2023 09:40

Every time someone criticises the Israeli State or Zionism ideology, there is always someone who comments shouting about Anti-Semitism and how anyone who questions, criticises or condemns Israel's behaviour is Anti-Semitic. And it's really annoying because it's not true.

The definition of Anti-Semitism is "Prejudice or Hostility towards Jewish people".

Anti-Zionism in the context of the ongoing conflict between Israel and Palestine is being opposed to Israel's decades long oppression, genocide and apartheid of Palestinians. Including but not limited to leaving people stateless, giving Palestinians less rights than Israelis and creating the open air prison that is Gaza, depriving the people there of water, electricity and food, and bombing relentlessly while not giving anyone a way to escape.

Plenty of Jewish people practice their faith, but are anti Zionist and condemn what the Israeli government are doing.

And plenty of Zionists are Anti-Semites, but support the behaviour of the Israeli government (including a decent chunk of British MPs according to Google)

Disclaimer before anyone jumps on me: I absolutely condemn and despise Hamas and their actions. I've not mentioned them as they're not relevant to my point.

OP posts:
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ForFriends · 13/10/2023 19:59

They’ll come along and ask faux-innocent questions when they don’t really want an answer.

Mumsnet is full of faux innocent questions at the moment. A good one here
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/chat/4919111-worried-about-jewish-friend-reaction-to-israel-hamas-war?page=11&reply=129916815

😂😂😂The OP is American or international due to their spelling. Weird stuff.

LemonyTicket · 13/10/2023 19:59

vivainsomnia · 13/10/2023 19:20

@LemonyTicket, there's only one last thing for me to say to you and it sums up in the saying 'practice what you preach'. You seem quite good at accusing others of your own actions.

As a jew, I have gone to finding your first posts interesting to finding them non credible because due your condescending attitude.

Why not just be honest with you. Here's what I see.

You arrived on the thread quite a long time ago and from the offset your first posts were along the lines of "oh but does Hamas being so terrible justify Israel being so terrible" or "oh but is racism always racism?" and then moved on to exactly what @Brightlyshining just talked about with the faux innocent posts. Example below:

"To those posters with extensive knowledge of the history, as a person more interested in understanding rather than debating on the terminology of words, could I ask you to educate me (others) on the Oslo accord and decision of divide the West Bank in 3 areas.

As an uneducated person, I just can't fathom the logic behind the division of areas in such small fragments. I assume it has to do with socio-geographical location of villages/town but it makes for such an odd arrangement. I'd love to also understand better what life in in area B. Does it mean Jews and Palestinians are managing to live in agreement in those regions?*

There seem so little explained about the West Bank as it stands now with all the focus- understandbly- being on Gaza.

Which has nothing to do with the thread and then just carried on asking similar questions. You can google in 5 seconds these questions. I think if someone knows enough to know know about the Oslo accord and Area B that you know quite a lot, and that your objective was to fill this thread with "ooohhh, aren't Israel terrible".

Then you pushed that and similar questions for quite a while to the point of getting very aggressive and rude to me "well fine I will go and find a REAL expert who actually wants to answer questions and isn't pushing an agenda"

This thread is about the difference between antisemitism and the difference between that and anti zionism. It is not about administrative facilities on the West Bank, and I think you know that, understand it perfectly and got very cross indeed when your intended 2x4 wasn't successful.

After I wouldn't bite and ignored you, you then re-appeared on page 19 or 20 and were suddenly Jewish, and were using that new miraculously developed identity to question my use of my first person plural pronouns. Despite them being completely standard English. On the preposterous supposition that you were *offended" "as a Jew" of being included in the sorry or our history or our experiences of antisemitism because they "don't happen to you.

So I am going to call red flag on all that to be honest. I think you're here to stir the pot and not much else.

LemonyTicket · 13/10/2023 20:02

Teder · 13/10/2023 19:47

Did you read my post or knee jerk? Did you see my own criticism of the Israeli government? No, you just wanted to get one up on me. You have failed.

It is other people who start to link it to Jews around the world, not the Jews. Do you not get it?!! Since last Saturday, there has been a 3-4 fold increase in attacks on British Jews. Why the fuck should I be at risk because of the choices of a country where I do not live?

He's hung around for days doing nothing but be contrary and trying to trip up or be silly or deliberately goady. I am losing my patience with it and have just started completely ignoring

Teder · 13/10/2023 20:06

Defiantjazz · 13/10/2023 19:57

Did you read my post or knee jerk?

I was being sarcastic tbh.

Edited

Why? I don’t understand.

I don’t think people want nuanced debate. I think they want to place people in boxes and pretend they know the intricacies of being a Jewish person and how we all think.

I am sure people like me (Jews who condemn the Israeli response) disconcert some people on here. It’s like some people are waiting for me (and those like me) to suddenly show another side. There is no other side. I am sickened by the tragedy of loss of innocent life by greedy politics and the inner workings of a corrupt government.

I will continue to discuss antisemitism though. I won’t let it be pushed away and my words twisted by anyone.

Defiantjazz · 13/10/2023 20:10

contrary and trying to trip up or be silly or deliberately goady.

Oh bore off.

Defiantjazz · 13/10/2023 20:12

I am sure people like me (Jews who condemn the Israeli response) disconcert some people on here. It’s like some people are waiting for me (and those like me) to suddenly show another side

wtf are you talking about ?

Teder · 13/10/2023 20:16

Defiantjazz · 13/10/2023 20:12

I am sure people like me (Jews who condemn the Israeli response) disconcert some people on here. It’s like some people are waiting for me (and those like me) to suddenly show another side

wtf are you talking about ?

I was jumped upon instantly for a statement I made. It was taken out of context. I haven’t goaded anyone on this thread nor judged their views.

It was like people are waiting for me to confirm “yes I think you’re all antisemitic” and I don’t think that at all. 🤦🏻‍♀️

Defiantjazz · 13/10/2023 20:21

I haven’t goaded anyone on this thread, judged their views

Nor have I
You can bore off as well.

Teder · 13/10/2023 20:24

Defiantjazz · 13/10/2023 20:21

I haven’t goaded anyone on this thread, judged their views

Nor have I
You can bore off as well.

Did I say you have? Why would you think that? This isn’t your thread, there are lots of us.

You did respond to my post though as did someone else, feel free to ignore me.

I won’t bore off, this is an important topic so I will keep posting all the same.

Defiantjazz · 13/10/2023 20:26

Well why did you say it then? Why is you point ? What are you on about?

Teder · 13/10/2023 20:33

Defiantjazz · 13/10/2023 20:26

Well why did you say it then? Why is you point ? What are you on about?

I am talking about the topic of anti Zionism and antisemitism, particularly on MN over recent days. I have referenced other threads I’ve been on this forum and responses I have received from people.

I said it because I am a Jewish person who has a lot of background education and cultural awareness of both topics and I was sharing my personal views on a chat forum.

Defiantjazz · 13/10/2023 20:36

I mean.. I’m trying to get one over on you? But I have FAILED. Wtf?

And as for Lemony since you aren’t talking to me can I just take the opportunity to say I think I responded to your patronising supercilious posts with quite good grace.

Teder · 13/10/2023 20:40

Defiantjazz · 13/10/2023 20:36

I mean.. I’m trying to get one over on you? But I have FAILED. Wtf?

And as for Lemony since you aren’t talking to me can I just take the opportunity to say I think I responded to your patronising supercilious posts with quite good grace.

You were the one who said you posted a sarcastic comment to my post!

Defiantjazz · 13/10/2023 20:40

You said “I haven’t goaded anyone on this thread of judged their views” because yourJewish person who has a lot of background education and cultural awareness of both topics

Aye that makes sense I’m sure

Defiantjazz · 13/10/2023 20:44

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Teder · 13/10/2023 20:44

Defiantjazz · 13/10/2023 20:40

You said “I haven’t goaded anyone on this thread of judged their views” because yourJewish person who has a lot of background education and cultural awareness of both topics

Aye that makes sense I’m sure

I haven’t judged your views, so not sure why you’re taking it personally. I don’t even think we disagreed until I posted today at 5:20 pm and you responded. You then said you were being sarcastic but not until after!

Teder · 13/10/2023 20:48

Anyway we don’t have to interact further if I am not your cup of tea.

I wouldn’t want to derail this thread further, so apologies to others for doing so. This has been an interesting discussion and I have been thinking about how I express myself especially online.

Defiantjazz · 13/10/2023 20:49

Yeah well your response was a bit high and mighty and I just lost patience a bit. Lemony didn’t help by sticking the boot in. SHE thinks she’s losing patience…
Anyway sorry I threw a bit of a strop.

vivainsomnia · 13/10/2023 20:58

You arrived on the thread quite a long time ago and from the offset your first posts were along the lines of "oh but does Hamas being so terrible justify Israel being so terrible" or "oh but is racism always racism?"
I think you are confusing me with someone else because that is not at all what my posts have said, unless you have to jump from A to Z.

I am not going to defend myself. You have acquired the skills of using language to twist what people say, ignore what suits you and then belittle as it goes on, and I would bet you never give up either.

I have already invested too much in engaging and hence participating in the fuelling. Time to withdraw 😋

vivainsomnia · 13/10/2023 21:09

So how do you manage to overlook the history of the Jews in respect of their willingness to defend Israel?
I have no issue at all with Jews' willingness to defend Israel. On the opposite. I just don't want to be included in it.

My grand father and his family were all in camps. The few who got out immigrated to the States and Canada. I went through a phase of wanting to know more about what happened but my grandfather refused to talk about it. He used to say that the past was the past, that there was no point in focusing on what you can't control and that I should focus on the present so that I could be part of creating a better future.

That was the focus of my education that left me interested in every culture and religion without feeling the need to form an opinion. Nothing more.

LemonyTicket · 14/10/2023 18:04

I posted earlier to the OP that the definition of zionism is basically the belief in a Jewish homeland in Israel. And opposition to that idea might be fine if you have an actual, cogent, alternative ideology by which you think people should live in the principles of equality.

For example: a person might argue there is no need for a specifically Jewish state, and a multicultural state should be formed for both Jewish / Muslim persons with equal rights of immigration and so on. Of course, they would need to get the Palestinians to agree to that, and find a way to deal with the fact that these two groups have completely opposed laws, ideals, value systems and so on. But nevertheless, it's a valid argument that isn't antisemitic.

So I do not believe anti Zionism is always antisemitic, although being anti Zionist is usually a result of already being antisemitic and it certainly fosters pernicious antisemitic ideals amongst the wider population, and I will explain why and how that works for anyone who is interested.

First of all, the word “Zionism,” resonates for many people as an expression of hope for Jewish survival and liberation. Zionism was conceived as a way for Jews to escape the oppression of antisemitism, in Europe, in Russia, and across the Middle East, and to live free, as other people live free. That isn't bad, is it?

Anyone who has read and knows the history (and I have posted extensively on it) knows they did not live free. Not anywhere. Not ever. But despite that being pretty reasonable and in no way related to racism or wanting to dominate others, in our day the left has turned the word “Zionism” into an anti Jewish swear word which they have constructed to mean whatever they want it to mean.

So in effect, the left defines Jews' Zionism for them, against their will, and without discussing it with them. It defines Zionism as racism and as support for apartheid. In so doing it defines most Jews against their will, as not decent human beings like the rest of humanity.

Then a few unusual Jews - religious extremists or hard left extremists - who are are willing to take on this same erroneous meaning are presented as evidence that this is entirely correct. They are then classified as “exceptional Jews” who are willing to denounce Israel and Zionism. And Jews on the wider picture are put in a position where unless they agree with this distorted definition of Zionism and denounce most of their kin, they are bad people.

It becomes a creator of antisemitism when "anti Zionism" takes on the modern left's new definition of what Zionism even means and that becomes propagated and associated with most Jews. People who are hostile to Zionism have given the word "Zionism" a meaning that reflects their own hostility rather than the actual meaning of the word to the people whom it describes. The OP, for example said she thought it meant "genocide". Tt certainly doesn't mean that to the people who are Zionists but if everyone defines them as that, then the damage is done.

Anti Zionism is common amongst the modern left because it is based on what the Marxists see as an “idealist” system of living - equality and so on. It understands Israel as the manifestation of racist ideology (that Jews have an ethno state because they think they are superior), rather than it being a result of the material reality (that the history proved that Jews were actually unable to life in this "idealistic" world without being ritually killed and subjugated).

In the leftie mind, "Zionism" must be racism because a country that is majority Jewish and that is not a state for all its citizens past and present, must be racist. It figures that the state prioritises the rights of Jews, on the basis of their ethnicity or religion, over those of non-Jewish origin must be racist and bad. They dismiss entirely that for the last 700 years (including now) that the same applies to every Muslim state on the planet. It dismisses the reality that Jews lived for 600 years as Dhimmi (which truly is apartheid) and under constant threat of death.

That blatant double standard is justified with the idea that Israel should not exist anyway, as it was founded on the settler-colonial theft of land, which rightly belongs to “indigenous” Palestinians. They don't consider the possibility that Jews are also indigenous, or that Arabs may be migrants (a lot are).

It fixates on the idea that there are many Palestinians who are now not living where there families lived 100 years ago. But Jews today do not live where their families lived 100 years ago. Their families did not choose to move but were exiled or had to run away from certain death. Most of them did not choose where to go, they went where they would be allowed to go (which was practically impossible to find). That is also dismissed as whataboutery.

The left propagates an idea of Israeli immigrants as again, terribly evil, but it ignores the fact that Jews are a tiny, tiny world minority and hence even those of European recent ancestry are often connected to Israel by family. Wanting to commune together within norms of culture is normal humanity - not racism. People's around the world do this.

Most perniciously of all, the new definition of “Zionism” in the modern left's imagination frequently characterises Jews as participating in dishonest global networks, conspiracies of lies and propaganda, in their own selfish interest. The idea of a "Israel lobby", controlling the world and policing what we say in order to allow them to continue being racist toerags without criticism. Even regular British Jews are accused each day of being part of this nefarious scheme.

So really modern "anti Zionism" often has little to do with proposing equality and multicultural ways of living together in equality. It more often that not targets solely Jews as underserving of freedom and safety from more dominant groups, and re-definitely their perfectly understandable hopes for the things all others take for granted as an expression of their negative characteristics.

So "Zionists" become a kind of evil sub set of people, and by portraying the overwhelming majority of Jews in the world as the enemies of all that is good, anti Zionism brings back to life the general idea that most Jews are "bad". The idea of most Jews as the “enemy of the people” is re-ignited. Which really was (I hoped) an ideology that I thought was stamped out after the Holocaust.

So anti Zionism in and of itself it's anti semitic. If it has a logical basis. But certainly the way the modern left goes about it is based on very antisemitic ideas and reignites a lot of most antisemitic myths and ideas history has seen. Which makes me very sad. I should not to be made to feel ashamed for being a "Zionist" because a few socialists have redefined this lovely word that is essentially based on peace and justice to mean something they have made up entirely.

And note: I am a socialist, so this has been doubly hard to endure.

ForFriends · 14/10/2023 21:27

Someone posted a link to this video. @LemonyTicket your posts have been excellent and informative. I was surprised at the way Dr. Gabor Maté speaks about Israel, what do you make of his views on Israel?

LemonyTicket · 14/10/2023 21:57

I can't speak for everyone but certainly ever Jew I know sees him as a total crackpot.

He ignores history entirely, this story of displacing the local population ignored really that Jews were being treated like that for 600 years across Israel but far worse. He ignores decades of atrocious terrorism. He ignores the fact hopeless, miserable Jews didn't become terrorists. And he is an apologist for Hamas. He is generally just a moronic fruitcake who is frequently wheeled out like a circus act.

I think in his professional life (trauma doctor of some kind) he is also known for completely ignoring science and research so perhaps he is just someone who does that.

I think he has made a career out of it!

etmoietmoietmoi · 14/10/2023 22:20

I don't know a huge amount about him but my impression of him is that he's probably only marginally less of a crank than his son, who is full on tankie.

LemonyTicket · 14/10/2023 22:29

There's crackpots everywhere anyway.

I remember a few years ago there was some guy who called into LBC and started saying he wanted brexit to control immigration because neighbourhoods were being overrun by filthy immigrants who turned them into cesspits.

Turned out he himself was a brown immigrant, but he said that he was acceptable as he'd "assimilated". 🙄I doubt his view is representative of accurate social policy or what the wider population think but some people can be racist towards their own if they feel it helps them fit in

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