To think people don't actually understand the difference between Anti Zionism and Anti-Semetism in the context of the current conflict?

[Fruitandclottedcream]

Every time someone criticises the Israeli State or Zionism ideology, there is always someone who comments shouting about Anti-Semitism and how anyone who questions, criticises or condemns Israel's behaviour is Anti-Semitic. And it's really annoying because it's not true.

The definition of Anti-Semitism is "Prejudice or Hostility towards Jewish people".

Anti-Zionism in the context of the ongoing conflict between Israel and Palestine is being opposed to Israel's decades long oppression, genocide and apartheid of Palestinians. Including but not limited to leaving people stateless, giving Palestinians less rights than Israelis and creating the open air prison that is Gaza, depriving the people there of water, electricity and food, and bombing relentlessly while not giving anyone a way to escape.

Plenty of Jewish people practice their faith, but are anti Zionist and condemn what the Israeli government are doing.

And plenty of Zionists are Anti-Semites, but support the behaviour of the Israeli government (including a decent chunk of British MPs according to Google)

Disclaimer before anyone jumps on me: I absolutely condemn and despise Hamas and their actions. I've not mentioned them as they're not relevant to my point.

It’s really sad that you feel this way but I can understand why. So many innocent people being affected.

Thank you for saying this. Exactly this. I find it so disturbing that people can't grasp this

I'm absolutely keeping my mouth shut on this point IRL for this reason.

There is no justification for terrorist acts, but it's also predictable that brutality and oppression will lead to very bad outcomes for the oppressors.

I have many Jewish friends and I am distressed regarding how this has affected them. However, all I can think is, why the fuck doesn't Israel stop building settlements. I am choosing to say nothing rather than taking the risk of opening the door for a discussion about it.

The general public view appears to be that disagreeing with Israel's actions equates to anti-Semitism.

On the recent MN threads I have seen plenty of anti-Israel sentiment but not what I would consider anything antisemitic. But that’s probably because I am not Jewish. I also don’t expect anyone Jewish to have to spell it out for me.

However I would like to be more aware so I can call it out. Or even stop doing so myself if I have ever posted anything antisemitism. I like to think I haven’t though.

I rather understood that both groups regard the area as their homeland ? So neither group can uniquely claim they just want their homeland

It's not enough not to be antisemitic
You need to also be anti other kinds of racism

The whole dispute is a racist dispute on both sides wanting land for their race

you do realise that jews didn’t just rock up on palestinian soil randomly, right? You understand that jewish people have lived in palestine for many thousands of years and have just as much of an historic connection to the region as muslims?

you do realise that there was no ‘country of palestine’ that was straightforwardly ‘colonised’ by israel? that this region has been disputed territory on and off since the roman occupation and that there’s no clear-cut ‘displaced locals versus evils colonisers’ here?

you do realise that a two-state solution, in which the land would be shared fairly, has been proposed multiple times since the creation of israel and has been roundly rejected by hamas?

you do realise that one of the stated aims of hamas is the extermination of the jewish people and the complete destruction of israel? that hamas believe jewish people
have NO right to live safely in the region?

I am not jewish myself, feel appalled for the suffering of innocent palestinians and israelis on both sides, and think Netanyahu et al are deeply problematic. But the ignorance and oversimplification on these threads is frightening.

@feralunderclass

Jews being a race is very different to a white person telling a black person what is racism, for example. Jews are from many countries and obviously are of many different colours

This is so insensitive to the fact we are without any question to single most persecuted group in history. Hitler didn't care what country we were from when he was throwing us in gas chambers, and certainly Hamas won't care either.

There isn't necessarily a power imbalance (that upholds structures of racism) between a jew and non jew. Some would argue that the Jewish person holds the power

This is a classic example of why some people don't understand antisemitism at all. They weren't putting us in gas chambers because we didn't have power. They were putting us in because we did. The same story has happened through every pogrum, every massacre and every genocide. Interestingly, the Arab people were very happy to live in a shared space with Jews as long as Jews were Dhimmi. Reduced status. In Servitude. As soon as we dared want equality all hell broke loose. Antisemitism isn't like other racism. It isn't about racial superiority (except maybe to bona fide Nazis). It is about deeply held prejudiced beliefs that we are uniquely malign as a group.

So no, just because a Jewish person tells me I'm antisemitic because I'm anti Zionist, then no, I don't feel I'm obliged to accept that as fact. Would it be the same if a Zionist Christian said it?

If you are a genuine person who is asking this question then I really beg you to do a bit of reading on antisemitism. Understand it, because it's very clear you don't and you have ended the post by saying that when a Jewish person points out you are being it that you wouldn't accept it. This whole post is a red flag!

There isn't necessarily a power imbalance (that upholds structures of racism) between a jew and non jew. Some would argue that the Jewish person holds the power.

So what you're saying is that The Jews are secretly in charge?

Antisemitism is not the same as racism, it’s a unique and ancient hatred.

Yes. Very well put.

The left’s obsession with Israel is what gives away their antisemitism. It’s bound up with a political world view that wants to oppose the West - and most obviously the US - but it clearly grows from and fosters a distrust and dislike of Jews just for being Jews and expresses as a belief (explicit or wrapped up in euphemisms) that Israel should not exist at all.

Judaism is both a religion and an ethnicity. Being antisemitic is racist (as well as hateful)

I mean that's not what I'm saying though is it?

I'm saying It's only anti semitism if someone is prejudiced or hostile towards Jewish people or Judaism.

Its not anti Semitic to condemn the actions of the Israeli government.
Just like it's not anti Muslim to condemn the attacks Hamas have carried out.

For what it's worth, if any other country of any other faith was doing what the Israeli government have been doing for the last 75 years I'd condemn them for it as well.

It is a bit frustrating when you feel like you can’t criticize Zionism without being accused of anti-Semitism. That’s probably the reason some people want to separate the two notions.

Well, that and that fact that not believing Isreal is beyond reproach doesn’t actually mean you have it in for every Jewish person you know.

you do realise that there was no ‘country of palestine’ that was straightforwardly ‘colonised’ by israel? that this region has been disputed territory on and off since the roman occupation and that there’s no clear-cut ‘displaced locals versus evils colonisers’ here?

Wasn’t it part of the Ottoman Empire? The British Empire took it over then partitioned it before they left.

Perhaps it’s better to say you’re critical of the current israeli government? ‘Anti-zionism’ is generally a massive dog whistle for anti-semitism because it has a history of being used to justify conspiracy theories about ‘jews running the world’ and other such nonsense.

@Defiantjazz It was indeed part of the Ottoman empire, and muslims, christians and jews lived there for centuries, sometimes fairly harmoniously and sometimes not. My point is that palestine wasn’t an established country that was just randomly colonised by european jews post-WW2, which is how it’s often portrayed - like most geopolitical history, the reality is way more complex.

I've noticed this.
I've had a Jewish creator lash out at me, call me anti semitic and block me because she made a post and denied that the strikes in Gaza were happening because "Israel wouldn't hurt civilians". All I had actually said before she said that to me was that we need to acknowledge attacks are happening on both sides, and we need to condemn the fact that innocent civilians and children on both sides of this conflict are being murdered.

I do feel that a lot of Jewish creators I've seen on social media use anti semitism as a quick way to shut down the conversation and prevent people from challenging their world view. I suppose it boils down to cognitive dissonance in those cases. It's probably incredibly uncomfortable to acknowledge that Israel, the land that is meant to keep them safe, is actively causing others harm and isn't the safe haven they've grown up to believe it is.

You ignored my point and continued to judge and lecture about a culture you clearly do not understand. I wasn’t calling you anti-Semitic. I was simply saying how non Jews should sit down and be quiet and let Jewish people speak. I wouldn’t speak over and speak for other ethnic minorities.

It is a bit frustrating when you feel like you can’t criticize Zionism without being accused of anti-Semitism

This is what criticizing zionism might sound like: "I understand Jews went through enormous struggle globally and needed to resolve the issue, but I feel trying to grow and build a larger base in the middle east might be destabilising. I think there are solutions for reintegrating a more multicultural approach again in the middle east if we can tackle extremism".

That is what legitimate, logic based, evidence based criticism of zionism as a concept might sound. The very minute you start deciding that "zionism" means genocide, apartheid and oppression then you are basically just using "zionism" as a code word to Jew bash.

Because frankly, zionism is not genocide, apartheid or oppression. It is a legitimate response to Jews experiencing all those things. Had Jews been allowed to live equally and fairly literally anywhere they would have been delighted.

Unfortunately they were not, particularly in their homeland of the middle east where they literally lived in apartheid for thousands of years. They literally were subordinate and did not have the same rights and had to live through all sorts of oppression, indignity and opression.

And moreover, actual genocide. We bandy about these words, but the facts are the Palestinian population in Israel has doubled. No one is suferring genocide. WE DID. We were quite literally almost exterminated as a group several times, and often by Arabs in our homelands.

We WERE quite literally oppressed. We had no country of our own, we had no protection in law, no rights to any land, we were not allowed to work in government, or socialise with Arabs, or live except in our designated areas. The yellow star the Nazis used was borrowed from the Arab world who also made us wear them.

So reframing the idea that we deserved our freedom and a place of our own as all the things we were escaping from is wrong. We would have happily lived peacefully for the last 75 years but we are unfortunately in a position where the people we were trying to live beside did not want us to have our own state.

That’s because threads criticising Israeli government descend into making stereotypical and racist comments about the Jews.

It’s breathtakingly ignorant for people to say “oh we cannot criticise Israel” when people have already begun with their spiteful digs about jews having power, skin colour (no we weren’t all white!) and how we need to remember the holocaust was 70 + years ago etc.

But lemony if Israel has stayed within the original land bounds and let Palestine have land too then just perhaps we would have less trouble ?

But actually I am beginning to not care about the history - this is about the here and now and we need to stop history repeating itself by not allowing history to affect now so much , history being used to justify murder

If we go back far enough it's our families that are on both sides being killed today

Everyone needs to be able to live together

It was indeed part of the Ottoman empire, and muslims, christians and jews lived there for centuries, sometimes fairly harmoniously and sometimes not. My point is that palestine wasn’t an established country that was just randomly colonised by european jews post-WW2, which is how it’s often portrayed - like most geopolitical history, the reality is way more complex.

Palestine did exist, to all intents and purposes, and the people who lived there were mucked about by the British Empires (probably well meaning) meddling. There’s the colonial element right there. European powers fucking things up.

If you're responding to my original post I did condemn Hamas. On my actual post. I specifically said "Disclaimer before anyone jumps on me: I absolutely condemn and despise Hamas and their actions. I've not mentioned them as they're not relevant to my point."

They weren't relevent to my point. My point isn't about terrorist acts. My point is that anti Semitism is not inherently the same thing as Anti Zionism...

Hamas don’t want to stay within the so-call original bounds of land. They want to obliterate all the Jews and the state of Israel. They are not going to negotiate.

I cannot see how there will ever be peace. Lives are being ruined and it is horrific.