To be a bit surprised by the gentle homophobia / othering around us?

[PlumPudd]

Just after some opinions / other experiences really. I’m a mum of two, wife gave birth to our first - our girl and we did some shared mat leave (she did nine months I did three). I gave birth to the second - our boy and am currently seven months into mat leave.

I’ve had a few odd reactions from people when they’ve found out I’m married to a woman. Some seem a little homophobic (very gentle homophobia) some just seem a bit othering. Along the lines of…

• saying I wouldn’t understand about crappy unsupportive husbands and spoil them being able to have a good moan (whose to say I might not have a crappy unsupportive wife at home, I don’t but I could!! Her being female doesn’t automatically mean she’s great)
• saying they would have invited us to a couples outing but it might be odd for my partner because who would she talk to the mums or the dads (1 she’s a mum too, 2 why can we not all just talk together, do the dads have to go off and talk about craft beer while the mums talk about pink ribbons or something?)
• when I describe myself as a mum of two or say I’ve got an older kid, and then later on say that I didn’t give birth to the first one, they challenge me on this phrasing or seem a bit pissed off as though I’ve somehow tricked them and I should have fully explained my exact circumstances right at the beginning of the conversation
• a couple of mums assuring me that it’s fine that I’m gay (I know)
• questions about whether my kids are going to have any male role models in their lives
• occasional comments about my son being dressed in girlier clothing and whether we’re doing this on purpose (yes he is wearing mostly his big sisters clothes so there will be some yellow and purple clothes in there and slightly fewer dinosaurs but this is because it’s cheap, sensible and good for the planet not because we’re gay)

I should say most people have been great and normal and this is just the occasional person, but I’m just a bit surprised to be encountering people who seem to have some sort of (slight) problem with it or think it means I’m not quite one of the club.

So I guess my question is, straight mums - are there any aspects of hanging out with a gay mum that you’d find a bit different or unrelatable? Gay mums, did you get othered at all?

Some of that feels almost like casual sexism than homophobia

Like the idea only men can be deadbeat and that the men talk about different things to the women or that clothing is gendered

And the one about not giving birth would be cruel to step, Foster and adopted parents too.

In short, all kinda shitty things to say for a variety of reasons and I'm sorry you've had to hear them.

Some of that sounds curiosity rather than homophobia.

Depends who you spend time with I guess. My NCT group was very much, ladies talk about babies and baking and "the boys" (men ) talked football. Luckily, my DH isn't into football and hated it as much as I did!

Our friend group is very mixed though and I honestly don't think anyone would bat an eyelid.

I agree with first poster that some sounds more like basic sexism.

Tbf about the role model question, it's siad children should have at least one of each sexes. Doesn't have to be parent, can be close frjend or uncle/aunt etc. Like girls will learn more from successful female role model than male, same goes for boys. Even good social behaviour. That's probably why. I know single parents who have that questions too.

I mean I don't feel the urge to discuss the Joys of Difficulties of Penis Sex, and DJ doesn't leave ejaculate in inappropriate places, so I reckon everything else is pretty much the same 😂

I'd just try and remember that this is about their tiny world view, not you.
Most people understand

• not all men are shit, some women are shit
• we don't need to split by sex to talk. If we do, your both the same as me so I'm allowed to talk to you both 😂.
• Not all mother's give birth
• not everyone loves by the blue Vs pink mantra. I'm only sad your girl didn't like Dino's more. Dino's rock.

Which bit?? Assuming that she can't possibly understand relationships like THEIRS? That she isn't really a Mom of two? That they can't do couples night because one isn't a man? That they might dress their son up in girl clothes because they're gay? I mean what is even the insinuation on that one? That they're trying to make him into a girl like them or they're trying to turn him gay like them?
The male role models might pass as curiosity HEAVILY dependent on tone and phrasing

Oh, so he'll have no male role models to teach him how to be a real man the
Vs
Actually no, I don't even know how to phrase that without it sounding shit and judgemental.

I think these people are challenged by your differentness. Their comments say a lot about them and their narrow view. Focus on the people you know and trust, and ignore the rest.

I honestly think this is just people getting their heads round something that is comparatively new. Man/woman/2.5 children has been the norm for so long that things are not going to change overnight - people will still regard you and your home set-up as a bit of a novelty. There is nothing wrong with that - it is important not to assume any insult intended - just people trying to understand. It may not indicate any sort of prejudice.

Given time I am sure that things will move on. You are caught in the middle of that transition.

So I guess my question is, straight mums - are there any aspects of hanging out with a gay mum that you’d find a bit different or unrelatable?

No absolutely not

I think you're looking to be offended personally but also people often trip over their words and say the wrong thing unintentionally when trying desperately to not be offensive. So it's 6 of one and half a dozen of the other. If someone does really offend you and you don't like what they're saying then just avoid them as I would as a straight mum and also mixed race, it's no different. I point out I'm mixed race as I've had lots of offhand comments in the past 'where are you from' etc but 99% unintentionally offensive.

absolutely not, but then i'm not entirely straight, and the majority of my friendship group are some combination of gay/bi/trans with a smattering of open/poly relationships thrown in. I'd just be glad of another parent to talk to tbh.

It does come across as definitely sexist with a ghosting of homophobic for sure, and it'd bother me too!

Sadly my experience was similar. "which one is the real mum?" being a question that has stuck with me for years

I think OP is totally clear on this being mainly curiosity/ignorance, which is why she says 'gentle homophobia' in the title. Homophobia doesn't just have to mean outright hostility and prejudice (though it can mean that). @SleepingStandingUp's post shows why - it's not that the people are trying to be mean, they're trying to be nice, friendly, interested etc., but their reactions are based on homophobic assumptions they probably don't even realise they are making. This can be much harder to challenge than outright hostility, because it's harder for people to see why it's a problem (as this thread demonstrates).

We're a lesbian couple with two sons. I have to say we don't encounter very much of this - none of the sorts of examples in the OP. We have wondered ourselves about the role model thing, though - mainly because we think it's difficult to navigate being a boy and a man in today's society, and it would be good for our sons to have a variety of examples of how to do this. Luckily they've got five very different uncles. We'd also like it if there were more male staff at the nursery - there used to be some but unfortunately they've all left.

Nah, I get you OP. Homophobia and misogyny are wrapped up into a neat bundle there.

I am already wound up about comments about my unborn son and his also-unborn girlfriend - aka the nearest antenatal mum to me is expecting a girl. Comments about my husband going to be useless and aren't Sarah and Susan lucky - um, no.

Before we found out the sex - oh, baby moves a lot, must be a girl. Oh, it's a boy, must be a footballer when he kicks. They talk about his "girlfriend" and I say to bump "don't worry, everyone will say this, you can be gay or asexual too". Oh, I think he might be gay? But they want to take him to the football!

And the ILs wonder why we're moving near my family...

YANBU.

Some people are just weird and have no ability to see anything from someone else’s point of view. You see it all over on here - people being completely unable to understand why their experience isn’t universal. So probably they aren’t exactly being homophobic, just a bit dense. They are probably like that with everyone that doesn’t fit their narrow prejudices.

It would definitely bother me too, though. Not inviting you because your DW isn’t a bloke is ridiculous. One of my old school friendship groups (we meet up annually without partners) is a lesbian and the rest of us aren’t, but I don’t think any conversations are off limits because her DP is female. That would be frankly bizarre.

Apart from the lack of dinosaurs for your DD. On that YABVVU. Everyone should have dinosaur clothing.

The only time anything ‘different’ has come up with our closest gay female friends was when they were deciding which of them should carry the baby they were planning, as the one who desperately wanted to be pregnant was older and in less robust health. She ended up losing twins that had taken endless rounds of IVF to conceive at 25 weeks and was understandably heartbroken, and it was quite complex when her wife then wanted to be the one to try again. She did, and they had a daughter, but I think it was difficult for her to watch her wife being pregnant, giving birth and breastfeeding when she’d really wanted that. This was a long time ago, and they’re happily together with a fabulous tween, but it was obviously a dilemma a straight couple doesn’t experience, and I felt very limited in the support I could offer because I had a young baby myself when they lost their twins, and it was difficult for them to be around that.

It sounds to me from some of the comments and attitudes you mention that these people have a dimwit deeply entrenched attitude to gender roles eg women moan to other women about their ‘useless husbands’ and spend their social lives in sexed groups because they think women and men can’t possibly have anything in common.

It sounds like a depressing combination of homophobia, stupidity and lack of imagination. I think being around them a lot would depress me.I’m assuming these people are acquaintances/school parents/neighbours rather than actual friends?

Some of that sounds fairly practical. It can be akward for any parent in an less usual arrangement to fit into a group. Stay at home dads feel this, for example. It often doesn't bother the ones who are more low key personalities, but I've known some who were bothered.

Basically what I'd say, is people noticing a difference aren't necessarily homophobic or othering. I also think that many people don't express things perfectly, and that is just what it is. It can be tricky for people to know what they are "supposed" to acknowledge, and what they aren't.

As far as the knowing who gave birth, this again is a tricky scenario at times, as it can be for adoptive mums. As you know, giving birth is a big deal and a very affecting experience. It's something most new mums are very immersed in and talk about a lot. "Are you a mum" in day to day parlance tends to mean, are you the biological mother of the child?" That doesn't mean people have a problem with adoptive mums, but there is a bit of a language lack there which can make things fuzzy, and people tend to feel uncomfortable and even annoyed when they get caught in that fuzzieness.

Sorry to hear you’re experiencing this. It says a lot that this is still an issue. I’m a grandparent and I have had friends in all sorts of situations, gay, straight, bi, poly, child free and adoptive. I would have hoped that nowadays this was in the past.

I think it depend upon the context of those comment - they probably did not come out of the blue ie a conversation was already in progress, in which case without knowing what was said before I would not necessarily think these comments unreasonable or inappropriate. I personally would not have made those comments but I will be honest and say that I would not seek out or develop a friendship simply because I would not want to offend as it seems very easy to inadvertently use a phrase or word or say something that would offend. In addition the views regarding how the school tackled diversity might be different from mine and whilst I am happy to debate the issue but I would not want to offend or feel I had to agree with something I did not agree to just to be polite.

Deeply entrenched attitude to sex roles, I think. Heteronormativity isn’t the same as homophobia. It’s more that heteronormativity means people don’t have suitable processing systems to categorise the information.

I was that person too, 15 years ago. When gay marriage was new, given I’d not been aware of gay friends in my circle, I had some difficulty processing how that would work as in which one will be the groom. I stupidly didn’t process that you have two grooms and two brides- which is why visibility is so important. When every wedding couple you’ve seen has had one in a white dress and one in a suit, the brain’s preference for patterns takes over.

It’s very normal in my village now there are several families with same sex parents. No one cares. Heteronormativity has been successfully challenged.

When you’ve grown up in a diverse environment it’s hard to imagine.

But actually, yeah it is surprising. I wouldn’t call it homophobia but I would say it’s surprising that people of childbearing age haven’t moved on yet.

OP you’ve got some weird responses.

I agree, this is homophobia.

I have “mum friends” who are lesbians and never felt the urge to ask them any of these types of questions. Literally just like any other couple but it’s two mums. It’s hardly bloody rocket science is it.

Would be interested to know where you live that you’re getting these kind of comments.

So you're saying you would avoid being friends with a same-sex couple just in case you "accidentally" say something offensive? And I'm not sure what the comment about the school means.

I guess I'd be interested in which of you was pregnant with which kid, mainly so I didn't make any assumptions, but also might feel a bit rude asking.

Other than than I think I'd find two mums a fairly relatable setup. I've got loads of friends who reuse older kids' clothes for younger ones even if they're not the same sex, so wouldn't notice!

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is the face of modern suburban homophobia.

Wouldn’t ‘seek out a friendship’ because those gays are so easily offended by ‘the wrong word’. It’s almost like black people expecting white people to remember not to use pejorative terms.