To be a bit surprised by the gentle homophobia / othering around us?

[PlumPudd]

Just after some opinions / other experiences really. I’m a mum of two, wife gave birth to our first - our girl and we did some shared mat leave (she did nine months I did three). I gave birth to the second - our boy and am currently seven months into mat leave.

I’ve had a few odd reactions from people when they’ve found out I’m married to a woman. Some seem a little homophobic (very gentle homophobia) some just seem a bit othering. Along the lines of…

• saying I wouldn’t understand about crappy unsupportive husbands and spoil them being able to have a good moan (whose to say I might not have a crappy unsupportive wife at home, I don’t but I could!! Her being female doesn’t automatically mean she’s great)
• saying they would have invited us to a couples outing but it might be odd for my partner because who would she talk to the mums or the dads (1 she’s a mum too, 2 why can we not all just talk together, do the dads have to go off and talk about craft beer while the mums talk about pink ribbons or something?)
• when I describe myself as a mum of two or say I’ve got an older kid, and then later on say that I didn’t give birth to the first one, they challenge me on this phrasing or seem a bit pissed off as though I’ve somehow tricked them and I should have fully explained my exact circumstances right at the beginning of the conversation
• a couple of mums assuring me that it’s fine that I’m gay (I know)
• questions about whether my kids are going to have any male role models in their lives
• occasional comments about my son being dressed in girlier clothing and whether we’re doing this on purpose (yes he is wearing mostly his big sisters clothes so there will be some yellow and purple clothes in there and slightly fewer dinosaurs but this is because it’s cheap, sensible and good for the planet not because we’re gay)

I should say most people have been great and normal and this is just the occasional person, but I’m just a bit surprised to be encountering people who seem to have some sort of (slight) problem with it or think it means I’m not quite one of the club.

So I guess my question is, straight mums - are there any aspects of hanging out with a gay mum that you’d find a bit different or unrelatable? Gay mums, did you get othered at all?

Jeez, this is depressing to read. Had hoped people had moved on from this kind of bullshit a long time ago.

You don't have to be friends with anyone you don't want to yes, obviously. But not being friends with someone because they are gay is homophobic and bigoted no matter how much you complain about it, or dress it up as being "polite".

@one262
choosing not to develop friendships because of having to be very careful over language etc etc and not knowing what might cause offence is not phobic, If someone this is the case that is their problem.

There are many situation where people avoid groups of people for fear of offending - that is not phobic. I would call it avoiding stress and upset - in fact I would call that common sense, why get stressed if you think someone is going to take offence about anything you say, we live in a society where it can be like walking on eggshells. Who knows what/how an innocent comment may be construed. Yes you can apologise and move on but for some of those who are offended they won't, I don't want that stress. As I said I think the comments show that you can offend so easily - and as I also said I wouldn't have made any of those comments the OP cited. So my approach would be - be pleasant, polite and extremely careful not to offend - didn't realise that was so offensive!

That wasn’t what your (now deleted) post said, and you know it.

It's common sense to not be friends with gay people and it's gay peoples problem for... being gay? And it'd not homophobic for you to say that?

Fucking hell not sure why anyone, gay or straight, would want to be friends with you.

@one262 If you going to ignore what I said but take points out of context I think you rather prove my point as to how easy it is to offend!

Not really sure how that relates to the OP, as she carried her second.

I think maybe the issue is that saying you want to avoid a particular situation for fear to causing offence/stress/trauma, e.g. a friendship with a lesbian couple, comes across as the speaker effectively refusing to learn more/confront his or her prejudices/take on board what minorities are saying they find offensive. Because logically, if you did this and learned from it/adjusted your language, you wouldn't be offending anyone.

@twelly
As I said I think the comments show that you can offend so easily - and as I also said I wouldn't have made any of those comments the OP cited.
Would you have been thinking those comments? I ask because often the people who complain the most about others being 'easily offended' are people who hold offensive views which they know would not be socially acceptable when said out loud. In this case it's fine because I don't think I'd like to be friends with you either, though I am sure we would both be very polite if we met in real life.

I actually don't think most people are easily offended by someone using the wrong word or phrase. The OP didn't say she was offended, she described the homophobia as 'gentle' but explained how she felt othered by it, and made to feel like she didn't belong. As a lesbian, I've also encountered homophobic language and comments from perfectly nice people, some of whom I did and do have close friendships with. One very good friend awkwardly explained to me that she was not 'like that', but if she were, she'd really want to meet someone like my partner! Obviously this is not acceptable language, but it was clearly coming from a supportive and empathetic place! On the other hand 'we couldn't invite you to our couples event because you're gay' is just horrible.

I'm not ignoring what you said I'm responding to what you said. That you would "choose not to develop friendship" with a gay person , that this is common sense and the problem of the gay person, not you.

In answer to the question about thinking those comment - no, I wouldn't because I am simply not interested in what people do, or live but I don't want to offend.

In answer to the point about "learning/adjusting" language - that is a fair point. Of course adjusting your language to be polite and make others comfortable is important and I do that and have done that but given the current climate there is so much that people take offensive to that I just feel avoidance is the best for me personally as it avoids that stress. I don't that make someone phobic.

@twelly the OP has literally spelled out what she finds othering and why. Did you read it, and still come to the conclusion that you have no way of knowing what someone will find offensive?

It's because someone has treated her or her partner differently because they are gay, or because they are both women.

Did you not understand that? Or did you understand but decide it's not actually that bad if someone does that? I can't really comprehend your train of thought.

The OP quoted what had been said to her. She asked about "hanging out" and whether it was different or unreliable.

My response is that for fear of offending I would avoid conversations which could lead to upsetting someone. I can't really make it clearer than that. In life I sure we have met many people who take offensive at the slightest thing. Increasingly rather than just say "that was a bit off" it becames a really big deal and especially in this case, I am not phobic but don 't want to offend and certainly would not want to get into a situation where someone made that allegation. Clearly in this discussion my approach is viewed as phobic by some - which is of course their opinion. Its a great pity as those comments have made me even less likely to engage.

So did you, or did you not, understand why what the OP described counted as treating them differently because they are gay?

I said what I said. In that deleted comment, I also explained how I am friends who are lesbian couples with children and I view them no differently than any other couple. LGB do have my friendship and support. I didn't go beyond LGB and I won't now.

Because her partner has that shared experience so should empathise better than man who hasn't done it

You didn't say you would avoid certain topics of conversation, you said you "would not seek out or develop a friendship". Do you really not understand how saying you wouldn't be friends with someone on account of their sexuality is just as if not more offensive and homophobic than anything mentioned in the OP?

choosing not to develop friendships because of having to be very careful over language etc etc and not knowing what might cause offence is not phobic,

Of COURSE it is. It's the same as not wanting to be friends with someone who is black in case you offend them by calling them a n***

If you're a decent person you shouldn't have to be careful of the language you use, it should be fairly easy not to use racist, homophobic, sexist etc language. I can't comprehend anyone who thinks it's an effort to do so.

Ok so you’re just transphobic then? Not sure why you needed to mention that on a thread about homophobia. Do you go onto threads about racism and talk about your disdain for disabled people?

No I don't. That's completely irrelevant. Whereas my comment was in realtion to putting girls clothes on a boy.

hmmm I never had this in my school run days but I wonder if people struggle with not wanting to invite BOTH of you for coffee/play dates etc?
Like school gates mums are usually the ones you do things with, the dads not so much because traditionally (and rightly or wrongly) it's usually mum picking up much more frequently than dad.
I had a similarish ish ish link tho to being the "real" mum as DD is a surro babe so I didnt carry her or give birth which some people found awkward to deal with

I think the comments re language and offending would have been valid a few years ago when it was very clear as to what language to use. Over the last few years that has changed - the gender issues/ debate has complicated the situation so it has become more more difficult because the language keeps changing and the situation keeps changing. Clearly every individual is different and what offends one person regardless of their sexual orientation might not offend another. What I am trying to say is that I don't want to inadvertently offend, the friends I have who are gay are long standing friends, I don't offend them as our discussion is not related to their sexuality in any way - they are just my friends. I think the climate has changed in recent years where you don't know what people might find offence, this has meant that many people avoid conversations, situations where previously they might have not done so. As I said that is the situation - if someone thinks that is phobic then that is their opinion but I think otherwise.

I'm still confused as to how you managed to apparently make gay friends when you avoid making friends with gay people. And do your completely real gay friends know that you avoid friendships with people based on their sexuality?

I think your first couple of points are because in a hetero couple there's a 'natural' split - if you remain friends, then you'll probably go on girl's nights out, spend time together at playdates etc. Is there an expectation for your wife to be there, because she's also female? Because there wouldn't be if she were male, but the dynamic will still change because they don't know her in the same way.

Other than that it sounds slightly panicky to me - they don't want to offend you, they don't want you to feel they have anything against you so they've gone a bit overboard which unfortunately is STILL othering!

But honestly that could be a load of old shit, I don't know any gay/lesbian parents.

@twelly

If sticking to safe topics and being polite and not seeking to develop a friendship with someone is offending then I think everything would/could be interpreted as offensive

But can’t you understand that the premise behind this is completely bigoted?

You are saying that you would prefer to avoid developing a close friendship with anyone who is different from you because you are scared of being exposed to the discomfort of having to try to see things from their perspective.

The language about “offence” is a total fig leaf. You are unlikely to cause offence if you take a bit of trouble to put yourself in someone else’s shoes for a moment and think about how what you say could land with them.

People always say “it’s so easy to cause offence these days”. It’s really not. All you have to do is use a bit of emotional intelligence, don’t ask intrusive personal questions when there is no need, don’t say things that indicate the person is “different” because of their sexuality, race or religion and think about how they must feel.

It’s not rocket science. Saying it’s “easy to cause offence” is basically saying you are too lazy, unimaginative and scared to associate with people who don’t look, thibk and live exactly as you do.