To be a bit surprised by the gentle homophobia / othering around us?

[PlumPudd]

Just after some opinions / other experiences really. I’m a mum of two, wife gave birth to our first - our girl and we did some shared mat leave (she did nine months I did three). I gave birth to the second - our boy and am currently seven months into mat leave.

I’ve had a few odd reactions from people when they’ve found out I’m married to a woman. Some seem a little homophobic (very gentle homophobia) some just seem a bit othering. Along the lines of…

• saying I wouldn’t understand about crappy unsupportive husbands and spoil them being able to have a good moan (whose to say I might not have a crappy unsupportive wife at home, I don’t but I could!! Her being female doesn’t automatically mean she’s great)
• saying they would have invited us to a couples outing but it might be odd for my partner because who would she talk to the mums or the dads (1 she’s a mum too, 2 why can we not all just talk together, do the dads have to go off and talk about craft beer while the mums talk about pink ribbons or something?)
• when I describe myself as a mum of two or say I’ve got an older kid, and then later on say that I didn’t give birth to the first one, they challenge me on this phrasing or seem a bit pissed off as though I’ve somehow tricked them and I should have fully explained my exact circumstances right at the beginning of the conversation
• a couple of mums assuring me that it’s fine that I’m gay (I know)
• questions about whether my kids are going to have any male role models in their lives
• occasional comments about my son being dressed in girlier clothing and whether we’re doing this on purpose (yes he is wearing mostly his big sisters clothes so there will be some yellow and purple clothes in there and slightly fewer dinosaurs but this is because it’s cheap, sensible and good for the planet not because we’re gay)

I should say most people have been great and normal and this is just the occasional person, but I’m just a bit surprised to be encountering people who seem to have some sort of (slight) problem with it or think it means I’m not quite one of the club.

So I guess my question is, straight mums - are there any aspects of hanging out with a gay mum that you’d find a bit different or unrelatable? Gay mums, did you get othered at all?

Homophobes never admit to being honophobes, just jikt racists never admit to being racist.

These people are not your friends!

I don’t know if they’re homophobic but there definitely seems to be an undertone of it.

I’m single and always get invited out and never get these comments.
I tend to talk more to the men anyway as we have more in common or just as much as I do with the women.

I would say I’ve known more abusive relationships when it’s 2 women, than with a the opposite sexes.
I’ve always wondered if it’s because they clash.
I couldn’t be in a lesbian relationship, even though I love my female friends, because I feel it would be really difficult.

Many men are inherently misogynistic, controlling or abusive but they’re choosing to be in a relationship with someone like that and it’s wrong of them to say you wouldn’t understand.
I am not in a relationship but I completely understand how many men can be abusive.

YANBU. I find all of those examples really weird.

A mother is a female parent. A father is a male parent.

Obviously you can't be your children's dad because you're female so you are their mum, as is your wife. What else would you be? What is so complicated to understand?

@twelly

In answer to another poster who said would that apply to other people different religions etc

Are you saying that as well as not being friends with a gay or bisexual person, you also wouldn't be friends with someone of a different race or religion than you?

Where did OP announce their pronouns?

I'm sorry you've experienced these situations and pp's have made good points about a lot of it being about sexism.

but for me the real question is why did your little girl not have more dinos on her clothes. exposure to dinosaurs is vital to developing a proper appreciation of them.

also I hate the boy v girl clothes at that age. why the seperation? they are babies! and all children should have dinos/bunnies/cats/planes/robots etc etc on their clothes

Wow! I would avoid these people wherever possible!

You are 100% a mum of two - not that you need anyone to tell you that - and I would be inclined to just look at them with confusion and ask them to explain.

Not being able to go out for couples’ nights with these people sounds like a win to be honest. Dodged a bullet.

Surely the stereotype would be dressing your girl in more ‘boyish’ clothes because ‘lesbians are butch’? Ask them to explain why a boy can’t wear yellow or purple or even - god forbid! - pink!

I did not say I would not be friends I said "I would not seek out or develop a friendship simply because I would not want to offend as it seems very easy to inadvertently use a phrase or word or say something that would offend." I would be wary as it is so easy to offend as the comment on the board show. Being wary of offending is not bigotry or phobic

Couples nights where the men get together and the women sit separately sounds horrific. That’s a red flag to me 🤣

I was replying to someone else, sorry.

What's the difference between not being friends and not developing a friendship?

And yes avoiding being friends with gau people is honophobic.

I noticed you didn't answer my question though.

There is a big difference - I would not develop a friendship with someone who had vastly different political views or who had vastly different values to me or who had vastly different lifestyle to me. I have friends with different different sexuality, religion and race but our conversation does not touch on those issues - I don 't want to offend.

I can see that these questions are thoughtless and some are offensive.

However, on the first question – Women couldn't own a bank account until 1975. Most girls and women have been brought up with certain lingering expectations of domesticity. Even in school, boys are "allowed" to be messier and dirtier than girls. As adults, those societal expectations of women remain, and most women abide by them.

I think in general men of a certain age have been socially conditioned since childhood to contribute less around the house. As adults, men are given a lot of societal leeway in terms of housework too.

So definitely, while that statement doesn't account for individual personality and upbringing, I don't see any relation to homophobia. Maybe sexism, if you disagree with the statement? I agree it's thoughtless to say though.

On male role models, I have read that studies show children with same-gender (as well as, separately, same-ethnicity etc) role models do better in life. It can be anyone from a teacher to relative.

My sister is married to a woman and my partners sister is married to a ma
I do often say about their kids that my sisters is far more advanced /had attention paid to him as both mums take it in turn to mind them at the dinner table and it's all very equal.

Not sure that's homophobia, that's more observations of particular couples roles.

I often forget which one is mum or mammy, that's the main difference,

They do both tend to go out with all their friends-I can see that is occasionally an issue in threads here-people bringing partners along to events and clearly the line is more blurred with same sex couples /easy to say "women only" but anyone who always brings along another throws off the balance. Is it homophobic to think that equally applies to sane sex couples as opposite sex ones?

You’re really stuck on this ‘don’t want to offend’ mindset. What you don’t see is that you’re being much more offensive by saying you wouldn’t develop a friendship with a person due to their sexuality.

Better to accidentally put your foot in it with a friend and apologise than to write them off as not worth friendship at all because they’re gay.

So how do you have friends who are a different sexuality if you wouldn't develop a friendship with someone who's a different sexuality 🤔

And values, lifestyle and political views have nothing to do with sexual orientation so I'm not sure how they're relevant.

@Comff I think that is a matter of opinion as when you offend some people there is no way back. To put it bluntly I don' want that stress or unpleasantness

I’m worried about this one specifically. My wife is due any day now. If I take our baby out alone, to a class for example, and get asked questions like are you breast feeding then it will obviously come up that I’m the non birthing parent. Will the other mothers then respond badly?

I think as female if you take a tiny baby to a group the other mum's will assume that you are a birth mother just because it would be statistically the norm. Some might be surprised but I wouldn't think that they would respond aggressively.

But you can’t see that you are offending lots of people?

My wife and I have been amazed by the absolute lack of this kind of shit where we live. We're in a traditionally tory part of the country and in the 14 years we've lived here haven't personally had any issues. We have a 6yo DS who I carried and I am really good friends with mums still from our antenatal class. The reason I say mums is because we all had a years maternity leave together and hung out at least twice a week - if we ever meet up as whole families then everyone talks to everyone else - no male/female divide. Early on in our classes we 'pregnant parents' met up for dinner to get to know each other better, and we had our own WhatsApp group to discuss things pretty much to do with pregnancy. My wife was invited on the 'mums' night out, but we all (us included) decided it was more for the parents that were going to be off with the kids to get to know one another. No-one was bothered either way.

When we were discussing having a baby my wife and I always said that we were open to questions - I don't share anything with other people that I haven't shared with my son (eg questions specifically about his donor) but he knows how he was conceived in an age appropriate way of course, and therefore if it comes up in conversation with another parent then I'm happy to talk about because it is a bit unusual and being reluctant to discuss it seems to make it more taboo. Also it takes a lot to offend me; and I would be happy to tell someone if they had!
We have had no problems with any kids or parents at school at all and I've made some good friends there.

For the PP who says they don't know how 2 women can be on a birth certificate - you take your baby to the registry office, show them your ID, your marriage certificate (and then have the registrar excitedly go and get the other registrar who married you to come and see what an adorable bundle of baby you've made), and they ask you some questions and you leave with a birth certificate that you put in a box that's hopefully somewhere in the loft.

@Comff Best wishes to you and your family. Be confident in who you are as a family and the choices you've made - anyone who gives you shit for that isn't worth making an effort with, and most people will just coo over the baby and lament the sleepless nights. We have always been open about who we are as a family because we need to show that confidence to our son if we expect him to grow up confident and secure, which he absolutely is :)

(crikey, that was a long reply, apologies)

I'm in my 50s
Personally, I think i only know two single sex sets of parents. They're in their 30s i think and the kids are primary age. One set was similar to OP in terms of giving birth. Other is an adoption. All very happy.

I definitely grew up surrounded by married 2.4 children set ups.

I don't think people mean to offend. Sometimes people don't think. I don't have kids and someone actually said to me the other week oh you don't have kids... so you don't have lots of debt. She didn't mean anything but it but i thought it was an odd thing to say.

I'm going to go out on a limb on one of these and say that people who have done the carrying a baby, evicting them and breastfeeding are a damn sight less clueless than those who haven't about some of the thing. Yes DH wanted pregnancy to go well but he didn't ever experience the is it faint blood or just my fingers visible through the toilet paper when wiping fear in pregnancy, the constant subconscious awareness of kick counting, the feeling of being like a beached whale trying to turn over.

A female partner who has carried a child has probably got slightly more instinctive empathy of the experiences that aren't big, exciting, special or particularly notable but are a part of being pregnant.

In a similar way to the way most men don't have the constant internal risk assessment on a journey, they can't instinctively empathise with the constant analysis (or the raging hunger) because they have only experienced it indirectly.

Other stuff is more problematic though...

Honestly, while it wouldn't make any difference to me now, back when I had a newborn and was recovering from birth and struggling to breastfeed, the distinction would have been more important to me

Yes, I'd say that most of that is inappropriate and represents some instinctive biases. On the plus side, most of your examples demonstrate someone who is at least willing to think about these things, but yes, they're micro aggressions.

Re the crappy unsupportive husbands, I'm afraid I don't think that's homophobic or even sexist. Statistically, men are more likely to be abusive partners and/or useless (all those stats about household chores sharing, for example). Doesn't mean all men, nor does it mean no women are, but it is true that overall, this is true.

To answer this: So I guess my question is, straight mums - are there any aspects of hanging out with a gay mum that you’d find a bit different or unrelatable? Gay mums, did you get othered at all?

My only potential concern regarding any kind of social activity with gay mums might be if I developed a friendship with one, and then inevitably we got into a bit of a "girls" evening out type event and the one I was friends with always brought her wife along. And even then, I think this would only really be an issue if 1. I didn't like the wife and/or b) they were all very coupled up on nights out. I like couple events - don't care if they're gay or straight - but I personally really value time with female friends, without our partners, too.

We have one quite close male gay couple friends - DH and one of the couple met through work years before either of them met me/friend's DH. And we all get on well. They don't live close these days but when they did, and when we do see them, we all get on well as a couple group, we've attended lots of bigger group events and parties over the years etc. But sometimes Dh and his friend will still meet up for a drink or a catch up, or perhaps with other friends of theirs from the "old days" and neither me or friend's DH would dream of attending.

The questions about male role models I would find really offensive. Do they ask single mums if they are going to actively look for male role models?

Honestly, while it wouldn't make any difference to me now, back when I had a newborn and was recovering from birth and struggling to breastfeed, the distinction would have been more important to me

I think this would have been true for me as well in as much as I was seeking shared experiences and in the early days they were very much grounded in the physical reality of my body pre and post birth.

Now with older dc the experiences can be the same as anyone else on the parenting journey regardless of how they got there.