To be a bit surprised by the gentle homophobia / othering around us?

[PlumPudd]

Just after some opinions / other experiences really. I’m a mum of two, wife gave birth to our first - our girl and we did some shared mat leave (she did nine months I did three). I gave birth to the second - our boy and am currently seven months into mat leave.

I’ve had a few odd reactions from people when they’ve found out I’m married to a woman. Some seem a little homophobic (very gentle homophobia) some just seem a bit othering. Along the lines of…

• saying I wouldn’t understand about crappy unsupportive husbands and spoil them being able to have a good moan (whose to say I might not have a crappy unsupportive wife at home, I don’t but I could!! Her being female doesn’t automatically mean she’s great)
• saying they would have invited us to a couples outing but it might be odd for my partner because who would she talk to the mums or the dads (1 she’s a mum too, 2 why can we not all just talk together, do the dads have to go off and talk about craft beer while the mums talk about pink ribbons or something?)
• when I describe myself as a mum of two or say I’ve got an older kid, and then later on say that I didn’t give birth to the first one, they challenge me on this phrasing or seem a bit pissed off as though I’ve somehow tricked them and I should have fully explained my exact circumstances right at the beginning of the conversation
• a couple of mums assuring me that it’s fine that I’m gay (I know)
• questions about whether my kids are going to have any male role models in their lives
• occasional comments about my son being dressed in girlier clothing and whether we’re doing this on purpose (yes he is wearing mostly his big sisters clothes so there will be some yellow and purple clothes in there and slightly fewer dinosaurs but this is because it’s cheap, sensible and good for the planet not because we’re gay)

I should say most people have been great and normal and this is just the occasional person, but I’m just a bit surprised to be encountering people who seem to have some sort of (slight) problem with it or think it means I’m not quite one of the club.

So I guess my question is, straight mums - are there any aspects of hanging out with a gay mum that you’d find a bit different or unrelatable? Gay mums, did you get othered at all?

Good post, @Thepeopleversuswork.

It's definitely othering, but it's not necessarily homophobia.

I've been 'othered' in various ways in the past, where my background or situation is different from the majority of the groups. Being a woman in a predominantly male group, having a minority background in a predominantly 'several generations back' Australian group (who had Anglo surnames). Being older/younger. Not having the same 'posh' or wealthy background. The list goes on.

Some of the behaviour can be downright nasty. Other behaviour is ignorant. Still other is just a bit naive and thoughtless. How I deal with it often a case of whether I can be bothered, or how much I need that group.

Bring othered gets tiresome though and it's why people seek out friends that are similar to them. It's easier to not have to deal with the constant little micro aggressions/ignorant attitudes/thoughtless comments. And I'm not even part of a heavily disadvantaged group (apart from being a woman!)

But.... it makes life and the world overall that little bit poorer if everyone stays in groups of people of similar backgrounds etc. So I will retreat for a bit, gather up my strength and resilience and venture out again.

It's tough.

@twelly your statements are sounding scarily like men who, as #MeToo was taking off were wringing their hands and saying, "Ooh, maybe I just won't hire women, or work with women, or talk to women in the workplace because you just don't know what you can and can't say these days."

It's complete bollocks. Any halfway decent person can figure out, and educate themselves, as to what is okay or not okay. Basic tip - making assumptions about people based on race, sex, nationality is not okay. Also, treating people as less than you. Also, asking the kind of questions you'd never ask people who actually look and sound like you.

It's a pretty easy rule of thumb.

So I guess my question is, straight mums - are there any aspects of hanging out with a gay mum that you’d find a bit different or unrelatable?

I don’t think so. I can’t think of anything that would make it different or unrelatable because another mum is gay. I think the examples you’ve described says more about the mums and that their thinking is a bit narrowed towards stereotyping something that doesn’t/shouldn’t have to be.

I know how I am viewed by other as extremely polite and not wanting to upset people. I think the comments re "half way decent person would ...." and "f....ing would't want a friend like you" etc etc are not the sort to comment that people I know would attach to my behaviour - as avoidance due to not wanting to offend is not phobic behaviour. Its pointless explaining when people don't fully either read a post of take points out of context. As I said before I think that I would even more wary given some of the comments - I do think society has changed and become more polarised, I think there is is less of live and let live more you have to agree/embrace rather than just let people, live their own lives. I see in lots of ways ie all wear rainbow lanyards, badges, event to promote whatever cause it is - rather than just say live and let live. That is my philosophy - its polite and respectful.

If you avoid being friends with gay people because of their sexuality then you are extremely homophobic and of you can't comprehend that then there's something seriously lacking in you. Nothing you have said is remotely polite or respectful.

I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for a straight answer put of telly, they seem incapable of giving one.

Imagine saying homophobic things on such a regular basis that you actually couldn’t be friends with an LGBT person as you would choose to be homophobic to their face.

Yeah, totally get it OP, we’re two Dads, so different, but we get equally homophobic comments, we also get straight people straightsplaining what is and isn’t homophobia, our little gay brains means we can’t work it out for ourselves.

We get equally innapropriate questions, we tend to just give stupid answers now. Where did you get them from is usually answered with either Asda or Waitrose.

I once had a poster on here say she pitied whoever we employed to do our wife work, because she wasn’t capable of comprehending that anyone can cook, clean, raise children etc, it isn’t something only women can do.

My husband once had someone at baby group say it was lucky he had a daughter, as it would be innapropriate for him to change a nappy/bathe a boy. Funnily enough she didn’t find it innapropiate when she changed her baby boys nappy.

We’ve noticed a weird thing where straight people will show us a picture of their boyfriend/husband to see if we fancy him, because we obviously fancy every single living man “Oh I’m only attracted to masculine men” is our favourite reply.

The old “oh thats a shame” or “what a waste” when someone discovers you’re gay, what they’re actually saying is “gay relationships hold no value”.

A nurse told me it wasn’t right that gay people could adopt as they don’t make suitable parent, yet straight people who abuse their kids do make suitable parents apparently.

Thanks @nearlywinteragain & @Legomania, do you have any advice for how to go about those conversations in the early baby days? I’ll be on parental leave too and really keen to try and make baby group friends (or coffee acquaintances anyway). Or do you think it’s inevitable that I’m going to put people off of friendships being the non birthing mum?

I don’t want to lie to people though. Or lie by omission.

If the baby’s breastfed by my wife for example then I wouldn’t say they’re bottle fed. I’d have to say ‘yes but not by me!’. I can’t say a simple yes because that will mean people will assume I’m breastfeeding and might ask further questions or think I’ve deceived them when they learn the truth.

Thanks @Smileatthesmallthings & @GingerIsBest

@twelly as avoidance due to not wanting to offend is not phobic behaviour.

Avoiding a gay person is homophobic, whatever your reasons are. Are you trolling, or are you actually this thick? You keep repeating the same thing over and over. You’re wrong.

Or do you think it’s inevitable that I’m going to put people off of friendships being the non birthing mum

No I don't think you will put people off friendships, no one worthwhile anyway.

I do think you might feel a touch excluded at the start as birth mother's talk in too much detail about their birth experiences, breast feeding mistakes etc but that phase doesn't last forever.

Also not everyone wants to talk about that, some mums are going to be desperate to talk about non baby stuff and their number increases as the traumas around birth recede.

I guess if I had any advice it would just be to be patient with birth mums at the start.

@BodegaSushi
As I said my view is that I would not want to offend - 5 years ago I would probably have had a different view but the increasing criticism of what people can and can't say which is not universal means it s is more of a minefield. I calling people "thick" is not how to debate a topic - I have respectful and polite in explaining my view, I understand that you don 't agree but please refrain from insults

You keep saying the same thing. 'I would not want to offend'. You're still phobic as fuck. I don't care that you don't swear, your homophonic and probably racist too, because you actively avoid mixing with people different to you for fear of 'offending'. That's much worse than swearing.

@BodegaSushi I have explained my views, as I said please don't insult me, I certainly haven't insulted you.

You've shared your phobic views multiple times. You've insulted whole groups of people.

No I have expressed an opinion and explained why I would avoid in-depth conversations.

The old “oh thats a shame” or “what a waste” when someone discovers you’re gay, what they’re actually saying is “gay relationships hold no value”.

My son has already had that comment & he was only 13 at the time @Simonjt .13! He's going to get that a lot & it's really not appropriate

A nurse told me it wasn’t right that gay people could adopt as they don’t make suitable parent, yet straight people who abuse their kids do make suitable parents apparently.

I'd wager there are far more accidental pregnancies among straight couples than gay ones. The hoops adoptive parents have to jump through should be proof enough of just how much they want to have kids. Gay, straight or otherwise. Really, most fertile straight couples don't plan for babies at a specific time

@twelly we gay mums are very normal and boring you know… changing nappies, moaning about nursery fees and discussing the best boots for the school run (or whatever the stereotype you prefer is). If you met me and my kid in the street you would never guess I’m a massive dyke 🤷‍♀️.

I see people as people and accept them exactly as they present themselves. I probably wouldn't even notice or give it a second thought. People really think the whole world revolves around them and their worldview!

I was getting you for a while, but you're pretty much saying there that gay people take offence at the slightest thing. That's clearly entirely unreasonable.

Do you know what, I can't think of the last time I had an in depth conversation with someone about the fact that I'm gay. I tend to talk to my friends about their kids, anything that might be worrying them, the mundane trials of daily life or the Roman Bloody Empire.

We are just people. I don't actually think you're worried about offending people, I think you're worried about someone offending you by calling you out on your bigotry and phobicness.

@Chickenkeev I am not saying that gay people take offence to anything and I believe in live and let live, if I meet people I take them at face value and if I somewhere discussing with parent my 5 year then the conversation would be natural. However, if were in a situation where I thought I don't want offend as the language these days/prononouns etc etc is difficult to negotiate. I would just prefer to avoid the stress of that. I don't think there is anything wrong with that - I don't believe that is phobic. We don't have to embrace everything we live in a world which is tolerant and respectful and there is a difference between chatting or a deep friendship.

@Simonjt that's awful. I'm so sorry that you've had to put up with that crap. I hope that you and your family have also met some supportive friends out there too.

@Comff I think honesty is your way forward. Do you go to any antenatal groups already? If so then making friends with them and going to places together to start with at least may help you with your comfort levels. My wife never really took DS to any baby groups because he liked to feed every 30 minutes so we never had that but whenever they're out together no-one questions that she's his mum.