To be a bit surprised by the gentle homophobia / othering around us?

[PlumPudd]

Just after some opinions / other experiences really. I’m a mum of two, wife gave birth to our first - our girl and we did some shared mat leave (she did nine months I did three). I gave birth to the second - our boy and am currently seven months into mat leave.

I’ve had a few odd reactions from people when they’ve found out I’m married to a woman. Some seem a little homophobic (very gentle homophobia) some just seem a bit othering. Along the lines of…

• saying I wouldn’t understand about crappy unsupportive husbands and spoil them being able to have a good moan (whose to say I might not have a crappy unsupportive wife at home, I don’t but I could!! Her being female doesn’t automatically mean she’s great)
• saying they would have invited us to a couples outing but it might be odd for my partner because who would she talk to the mums or the dads (1 she’s a mum too, 2 why can we not all just talk together, do the dads have to go off and talk about craft beer while the mums talk about pink ribbons or something?)
• when I describe myself as a mum of two or say I’ve got an older kid, and then later on say that I didn’t give birth to the first one, they challenge me on this phrasing or seem a bit pissed off as though I’ve somehow tricked them and I should have fully explained my exact circumstances right at the beginning of the conversation
• a couple of mums assuring me that it’s fine that I’m gay (I know)
• questions about whether my kids are going to have any male role models in their lives
• occasional comments about my son being dressed in girlier clothing and whether we’re doing this on purpose (yes he is wearing mostly his big sisters clothes so there will be some yellow and purple clothes in there and slightly fewer dinosaurs but this is because it’s cheap, sensible and good for the planet not because we’re gay)

I should say most people have been great and normal and this is just the occasional person, but I’m just a bit surprised to be encountering people who seem to have some sort of (slight) problem with it or think it means I’m not quite one of the club.

So I guess my question is, straight mums - are there any aspects of hanging out with a gay mum that you’d find a bit different or unrelatable? Gay mums, did you get othered at all?

with the breastfeeding I would have said my wife was breastfeeding and getting DS to take a bottle as well had been a nightmare. --- exactly - just tell it like it is. What is the problem with that?
@Mischance not a problem - you’ll have to read through to get context. PP said they might have been thrown off by finding out I’m the non birthing mum if I took our baby alone to a baby group (automatic assumption would be I was the one and only mum and talk would be around birth, feeding etc) and I was asking how best to go about it.

It’s linked to one of the OPs points - that some people feel like she’s almost tricked or deceived them when they find out she didn’t carry one of her children. That ‘finding out’ part seems to rock the boat sometimes.

@Comff what I tend to do is slip it into a conversation as early and as casually as possible, e.g. talk about his other mum. It just solves the awkwardness of potentially talking at cross purposes for a while and having to do a big reveal. Straight people who 'don't understand why anyone cares about other people's sexuality' probably don't realise that when you are the social norm, you don't have to 'come out' over and over again.

I think this sort of thing is precisely the difference that (some of the) straight people posting on this thread don't get between overt, aggressive homophobia, and a more benign homophobia based on unchallenged assumptions you've always had without really thinking about them: the other mums probably mostly don't have a problem with us being gay, but they don't enjoy having their assumptions challenged, because it reveals to them that they have those assumptions, and they then get defensive (i.e. 'well I'm not homophobic so my assumptions can't have been homophobic so they must have been reasonable'). Maybe it's the term 'homophobia' that sounds more aggressive? I think if it was an '-ism' it would be clearer that sympathetic or even positive attitudes/assumptions could still be a bit suspect.

If you want to ask any questions @Comff feel free to DM me. I’ve been the “other mother” with our first one and had to navigate peoples reasonable assumptions that you gave birth to the baby you’re taking to baby classes, as well as being the the birth mother the second time around.

i suppose one may get defensive if accused of being homophobic by assuming the mum presented to you at baby class gave birth to the child.

the child could also have been adopted or fostered. it could be a young gran bringing her grandkid to a baby class or a nanny.

yes the intial assumption is that the person at baby group (if female) gave birth but a quick correction is all that is needed (i assume for 95% of reasonable people who will just think ah cool and won't ask about how the birth was or breastfeeding but will ask what pram choice may be)

@burnoutbabe - yes, most sensible people. But the OP specifically mentions people who seem offended when they find out. As I said, I normally get in there early as this helps avoid that type of reaction.

I think what happens when straight people assume that the mum that’s there is the only mum and the birth mum, and then they are corrected- however friendly or gentle the correction is- is that the person who made the mistake feels embarrassed, then awkward, then isn’t sure what to say so then they try and make their exit asap and find someone who doesn’t make them feel uncomfortable.

Then next time you go to the group the person remembers feeling embarrassed and awkward and avoids you. It’s easy to see if that happens a few times with different people in the group, you can quickly end up on the outside.

I am puzzled by this desire to announce/broadcast one's sexuality. I do not care what people do with their genitalia (as long as no-one is hurt) nor whom they choose to love.

I don’t think there is a desire to announce or broadcast. It is something that comes up eventually when introducing spouses (whether married or not) and having children and people unfortunately consciously and unconsciously have feelings and thoughts about it due to their own assumptions, expectations, and pre-conceived notions of someone they meet or know on an acquaintance level.

I take it you never mention your sexuality? Never mention a partner or spouse or ex to anyone ever?

And I'm not sure how choice really cpms into it.

Are you a very young mum @PlumPudd? I’m late 30s, and overt, unquestioned and freely expressed homophobia was rife when I was growing up. Obviously times have changed greatly for the better, and teenagers are different to adults, but sadly I wouldn’t be surprised by it. Is this really the first time you have encountered it?

YANBU at all to think it’s stupid, but I am a bit surprised that you’re surprised.

I never understand this idea that gay people flaunt their sexuality more than anyone else. If someone asks me what my husband does or if my boyfriend is coming to an event for example, what am I actually supposed to say in order to not flaunt my sexuality by mentioning my wife?

What about if we are both at an event, do we pretend not to know each other?
Am I supposed to tell my child never to mention his other mum?

What is normal dialogue for straight people is somehow unnecessary flaunting for gay people 🤷‍♀️

The flaunting accusation is homophobia.

It absolutely is: 'I don't care about your sexuality as long as I don't have to know about it or see it'.

Yep. Homophobes hate it when you reverse it and complain about straight people flaunting their sexuality, or sexual preference as I like to call it as that annoys them too.

I had this come up in a training session a couple of years ago- one of the men said he didn't care about gay people but didn't see why he would ever need to know someone was gay. I pointed out I'd met his wife at a work event and he genuinely couldn't grasp why that was anything to do with what he'd just said. Even carefully explained using short words he was unable to accept that me knowing he had a wife was anything to do with knowing someone was gay.

He was a thick homophobe basically.

I can't believe in this day and age someone would just casually admit they would never be friends with gay people.

Its low level homophobia for sure.

If someone says they avoid gay people because they don't want to offend them, sorry you are a homophobe, simple as that.

I have seen even more overt homophobia at a religious school I know, comments about how two men/two women shouldn't have kids, the bible says this etc. Shocking.

Well currently on Mumsnet is a thread about missing ‘the old days of Strictly’ where they didn’t have same sex couples. And loads of people falling over themselves to say it’s not homophobia, it’s just that dances are meant to be for a man and a woman. Okaaaaayyyyyyyy

Yikes that's awful. Do you have a link?

Thank you, this with bells on.

I can't think of a better example of homophobia than when the reason given to avoid a person's friendship is "I don't want to be in a position where I might be misunderstood by these sensitive, high strung gays, no no, let me stay away from them!". Twelly is literally confessing all over this thread that they've made a habit of avoiding LGBTQ people - flesh and blood people who are made of life experiences and thoughts and opinions and wisdom and emotions and love and empathy to share with this world, just like any other human - purely based whom the latter prefer to sleep with, consensually! Mindblowingly sad.

"groups of people"
"it's common sense (to avoid lgbtq people because they would take offence in a jiffy)"
"the comments show that you can offend so easily"

You are being incredibly offensive. I hope you realise what a raging homophobe you are. No matter how much you deny, that is what you are.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/telly_addicts/4914918-i-miss-old-strictly?page=1

Not sure I'd describe @twelly 's comments as low level. It's some of the most blatant homophobia I've ever seen on this site.