To be a bit surprised by the gentle homophobia / othering around us?

[PlumPudd]

Just after some opinions / other experiences really. I’m a mum of two, wife gave birth to our first - our girl and we did some shared mat leave (she did nine months I did three). I gave birth to the second - our boy and am currently seven months into mat leave.

I’ve had a few odd reactions from people when they’ve found out I’m married to a woman. Some seem a little homophobic (very gentle homophobia) some just seem a bit othering. Along the lines of…

• saying I wouldn’t understand about crappy unsupportive husbands and spoil them being able to have a good moan (whose to say I might not have a crappy unsupportive wife at home, I don’t but I could!! Her being female doesn’t automatically mean she’s great)
• saying they would have invited us to a couples outing but it might be odd for my partner because who would she talk to the mums or the dads (1 she’s a mum too, 2 why can we not all just talk together, do the dads have to go off and talk about craft beer while the mums talk about pink ribbons or something?)
• when I describe myself as a mum of two or say I’ve got an older kid, and then later on say that I didn’t give birth to the first one, they challenge me on this phrasing or seem a bit pissed off as though I’ve somehow tricked them and I should have fully explained my exact circumstances right at the beginning of the conversation
• a couple of mums assuring me that it’s fine that I’m gay (I know)
• questions about whether my kids are going to have any male role models in their lives
• occasional comments about my son being dressed in girlier clothing and whether we’re doing this on purpose (yes he is wearing mostly his big sisters clothes so there will be some yellow and purple clothes in there and slightly fewer dinosaurs but this is because it’s cheap, sensible and good for the planet not because we’re gay)

I should say most people have been great and normal and this is just the occasional person, but I’m just a bit surprised to be encountering people who seem to have some sort of (slight) problem with it or think it means I’m not quite one of the club.

So I guess my question is, straight mums - are there any aspects of hanging out with a gay mum that you’d find a bit different or unrelatable? Gay mums, did you get othered at all?

I think this hits it tbh

This thread has the kindest responses to do with a same sex couple I've ever seen on mumsnet.

We get a lot of curious acquaintances asking "how we'll do it" (have a baby).

We haven't had to navigate the rest of it yet.

Who you choose to develop friendships with is personal, I would not want to offend someone, by a friendship I mean close friendship I would of course be polite, friendly and stay away from subjects which I thought would offend. I don't see that as phobic - I see that as being sensitive. Of course it may be further down the line as you are getting to know someone you feel you are on the same wavelength but like with everything you don't know. I view my approach as pragmatic.

I dont know about your situation but I'll be honest and say I totally don't understand how 2 women can be on a birth certificate. It just makes no sense to me.

YANBU, although I think from the examples you've given it might be more cluelessness/lack of experience of non-heterosexual families than homophobia. However, the exclusion from the couples outing is hurtful and ignorant, as are the comments questioning your parenthood of the DC you didn't birth yourself. It makes me wonder if they feel that adoptive parents are any less parents in that case?

But the point about heteronormativity is right, I feel. There are lots of people who really don't know any gay/lesbian couples/families or have them as part of their social circle and sometimes people open their mouths and idiotic things come out by accident. I remember when we had two gay dads with a son who joined one of my kid's classes - they were a novelty because they were the only gay parents that a lot of the families at the school had ever met!

Not wanting to be friends with someone because they're gay is quite homophobic.

And still not sure what the school comment means since it has nothing to do with the OP.

Agree that it’s homophobia but giving people the benefit of the doubt perhaps it mostly comes from it just being something new for them?

We are all learning and I think occasionally we might say / ask something that later we might reflect on and think “god why did I say that” because actually on reflection it had some questionable undertones.

Personally I have no issues with gay parents, it wouldn’t cause me to have questions because I assume all people are just people with their own individual quirks and characteristics. If I had gay friends with kids might I ask questions - yeah sure. But then I’d ask the same type of questions to all people who aren’t having the same experience as me (so single parents, parents who have adopted, blended families etc) because how can we learn about others if we don’t ask about their experience?

Totally see how it might be frustrating for you though and agree that some of it will be outright homophobia and not just faux pas

I guess if you (wrongly) believe that a birth certificate is a genetic record, rather than a legal record of someone's date and place of birth and family circumstances, it would be quite hard to understand.

You only have to look up the thread on here about coercive control between a lesbian couple to know you don't have to be straight to have a shitty partner. Those comments are come from the mentality of 'all women are angelic mothers & all men are useless father's' which is just utter rubbish.

As long as a child is loved & secure I couldn't care less if their parents are straight or same sex. Tbh, I've always thought two dad's would suffer more from judgement than two mums & have tried to prep DS2 for how ridiculous ppl can be about gay couples. Ultimately, though, it's their problem, not yours. If it's genuine curiosity then answer the questions, at least then they are learning & have the answers ready for their own children when they ask. That's how this stuff goes away. It's not your responsibility to educate, though.

If it's outright 'couldn't invite you to an event' then I'm not sure how polite I could be in that situation cos that just looks like cut & dry homophobia.

@VeterinaryCareAssistant because we’re both the legal parents of both children and have legal responsibility for them.

Same, it was awful. My DH sensibly removed himself from the WhatsApp almost immediately and never socialised with them. I drifted about six months into mat leave when I'd met people more on my wave length at other groups etc

So I guess my question is, straight mums - are there any aspects of hanging out with a gay mum that you’d find a bit different or unrelatable?

On your question, no not really. You're parents just like other mums and dads. We live in quite a diverse area where families come in all shapes and sizes, religions, socio-economic groups. I can imagine that in some areas you might stand out a bit more - not in a negative way obviously, but just in a 'this is different from the norm' way. Even if this was the case, I couldn't imagine it being a problem in any way.

I might make some of the comments you've highlighted (about it being nice to have another woman around, for example, but not any of the rest), not really because I believe all men are crap or all woman good, but more because I'm sleep-deprived, terrible at small talk and looking for something to say while the kids play. It wouldn't have any deep meaning behind it and I certainly wouldn't be judging (either positively or negatively) your family structure. It can be difficult to find common ground when chatting to other parents and sometimes people say things without first engaging their brains (myself included).

Yeah, our NCT group were all a bit like 'ooh, DH is actually quite good with little Munchkin, I'll have to be careful or he won't give him back'. They didn't know quite what to do with me as the non-birthing mother, so went for treating me as a fully competent parent due to also being female.

I don't think it is phobic but people do have different views - I think not wanting to offend is more politeness. I think really that idea that by trying not offend you are phobic makes me think that my approach is the best approach for me - I don't want to end up in conversation where I have said something which is interpreted in a way that upsets someone. I don't want confrontation or to offend.

I'm afraid that is homophobia. Someone's sexuality is the least interesting thing about them & using it as a way to justify being friends or not is homophobic (or heterophobic were a gay couple to avoid friendships with straight couples), they are a whole human & who they have romantic relationships with just has no impact on you at all cos you're not in one with them.

Would you 'manage' relationships with a black couple in case you were accidentally racist? Or a Jewish couple in case you did a bit of antisemitism?

Low grade homophobia is still common. I often see on mumsnet, usually from people who say they are not homophobic.

People do treat dads differently. In one play group type thing they arranged a special dads' meeting with bacon sandwiches. Obviously the mums were never offered bacon sandwiches...

How long do you think it's acceptable for it to take? I'm an older mum and gay parents have been around all my life. OP is talking about fellow parents. Sure if they were aged 60+ I might have a bit more sympathy but really for anyone under 45 it shouldn't feel like some kind of circus show.

I actively hate dinosaur clothing, none of my kids have ever had anything with dinosaurs on 🙈

Yes, I'd say it was more suffocating heteronormativity than overt homophobia. But then I'm a straight single mum, so there could be nuances I don't pick up on.

For the record, I give the kind of people who throw gatherings with the women in the one corner talking about babies and the men in the other talking about power tools a hard swerve. I'd rather be talking about the power tools with a beer, but then I get weird vibes from the women thinking I'm out to steal their man. Honestly, you can keep him love 🙄.

There is one thing they're right about though. Yes, lesbian partners can be horrible to each other, but it's not as entrenched and insidious as structural misogyny. I firmly believe it's far more probable that your average gay parents have a truly equitable parenting relationship than your average straights.

So in short....you just need to find your people OP. Hang out with those other rejects from the smugocracy- lone parents, stay at home dads, families where the mum's the main breadwinner, people who've had a bit more life experience, basically.

If you purposely avoid gay people and gay couples because they are gay that is pretty much textbook homophobia. I'm sorry you can't admit that. Although I agree it's probably for the best that you avoid them, no gay or bisexual person wants to be around homophobes like you.

I think where you are probably makes a difference. Round here is very white, very straight, older average age & very small c conservative. There would be much curiosity, some meanness but also a fair amount of shrugged shoulders.

I think we are coming to the end of the transition period, there is so much work being done in schools to normalise being straight/gay/bi & a lot of exposure to the fact gay ppl are absolutely ordinary doing ordinary things living ordinary lives.

In answer to your question op, no I wouldn't be put off at all. I don't actually know any gay couples with kids (I live in a small town in the NE and for some unknown reason we are not a very diverse lot both in race and sexuality) but I wouldn't think any differently at all.

I would be extremely curious about who gave birth to the kids but only because I'm a very nosey person, I wouldn't actually ask you though or say it somehow made you less of a mother.

Would you 'manage' relationships with a black couple in case you were accidentally racist? Or a Jewish couple in case you did a bit of antisemitism?

The sad thing is I think @twelly probably would.