To be a bit surprised by the gentle homophobia / othering around us?

[PlumPudd]

Just after some opinions / other experiences really. I’m a mum of two, wife gave birth to our first - our girl and we did some shared mat leave (she did nine months I did three). I gave birth to the second - our boy and am currently seven months into mat leave.

I’ve had a few odd reactions from people when they’ve found out I’m married to a woman. Some seem a little homophobic (very gentle homophobia) some just seem a bit othering. Along the lines of…

• saying I wouldn’t understand about crappy unsupportive husbands and spoil them being able to have a good moan (whose to say I might not have a crappy unsupportive wife at home, I don’t but I could!! Her being female doesn’t automatically mean she’s great)
• saying they would have invited us to a couples outing but it might be odd for my partner because who would she talk to the mums or the dads (1 she’s a mum too, 2 why can we not all just talk together, do the dads have to go off and talk about craft beer while the mums talk about pink ribbons or something?)
• when I describe myself as a mum of two or say I’ve got an older kid, and then later on say that I didn’t give birth to the first one, they challenge me on this phrasing or seem a bit pissed off as though I’ve somehow tricked them and I should have fully explained my exact circumstances right at the beginning of the conversation
• a couple of mums assuring me that it’s fine that I’m gay (I know)
• questions about whether my kids are going to have any male role models in their lives
• occasional comments about my son being dressed in girlier clothing and whether we’re doing this on purpose (yes he is wearing mostly his big sisters clothes so there will be some yellow and purple clothes in there and slightly fewer dinosaurs but this is because it’s cheap, sensible and good for the planet not because we’re gay)

I should say most people have been great and normal and this is just the occasional person, but I’m just a bit surprised to be encountering people who seem to have some sort of (slight) problem with it or think it means I’m not quite one of the club.

So I guess my question is, straight mums - are there any aspects of hanging out with a gay mum that you’d find a bit different or unrelatable? Gay mums, did you get othered at all?

I'm sorry this group has been so narrow in outlook OP. I'm not lesbian but it wouldn't be the group for me either.

Some humans do like to gravitate to people most like themselves in narrow outward respects. I don't know why. It isn't always the best way to find like-minded friends.

It seems human (lazy) to tend to think of people in catagories and think of them as kinds:
-if they went to this kind of school - they will be like this
-if they live in this sort of house - they will be like that
-if they dress like this - they will be like that

Obviously it is a kind of 'shorthand' and I think we all do it a bit.

If parents come from an unusual pairing (unusual to the group) i.e. black and white - Asian and black - man and man etc. they will be a bit stumped as to how to catagorise them. This leads to clumsy questioning and wrong assumptions. I would take this to be ignorance/foolishness rather than phobia... but it probably feels worse on the receiving end.

Groups like yours will probably assume that you will automatically be BF with anyone gay or lesbian as if sexual orientation is everything they need to know about a person.

When in a parenting group like yours I hated being expected to moan about our husbands's ( apparently typical male) failings about the house or talk about our (typical female) facination with something frilly or celebrity gossip.

I did feel very alone and odd until I realised that not all groups are like this.

You will find your people (and they won't have to be just like you).

There is one thing they're right about though. Yes, lesbian partners can be horrible to each other, but it's not as entrenched and insidious as structural misogyny. I firmly believe it's far more probable that your average gay parents have a truly equitable parenting relationship than your average straights.

I believe this too, at least to some degree. While both men and women can be shit parents and partners, men are uniquely 'permissioned' to be so by low societal expectations and entrenched gender inequalities.

I think this too. Apart from getting to have sex with women, the only main advantage of being a lesbian is that there isn't as much of a social 'script' to follow, and you can make your own choices about what your life might look like. DP and I have a totally equal approach to parenting and everything else to do with our joint lives, and it's something that we don't really see in our straight friends' approaches even when they are committed to being very equal.

However, I also think it's this lack of a script that confuses well-meaning straight couples - they can get their heads round others being gay, but only if we're exactly the same as them (but gay).

I just want to pick up on your last sentence there.

Clearly I would say that kind of scenario is not ideal. It's not how you develop a relationship with people.

But it's exactly what the current obsession with expecting everyone to use the exact right words and individual prefers, or never to take anything for granted that isn't in fact the case, etc, creates.

People can't feel natural when they are worried they will offend about these simple things, or be considered racist or homophobic, and they certainly can't ask the individuals concerned about them in an environment like that, because that could blow right up. Imagine the MN thread!

It shouldn't be a surprise that under those conditions, some people just avoid getting into any discussion o scenario where they might say or do the wrong thing.

I’d probably agree with those saying some of this is sexism / heteronormativity but there is a lot of cross over between that and gentle homophobia.

I imagine stay at home dads or dads doing SPL probably get some similar daft sorts of comments (some unthinking, some actively negative) because they like us don’t quite fit the mould.

why can we not all just talk together, do the dads have to go off and talk about craft beer while the mums talk about pink ribbons or something?

It's not at all unusual for mixed gatherings to turn into men talking with men and women talking with women. It's the sexist culture we are brought up in.

I have no idea how long it might take - but these things do take time, and that is just a fact of life. It is not a matter of what length of time is "acceptable" - it is a matter of what really happens in the real world. Things are moving on - maybe not at the pace we might all wish - but they are.

I find @twelly’s comments: that you avoid having close relationships with people because there’s a risk you may offend them, incredibly depressing. And not just because of the bigotry. And yes it is bigoted to think that someone’s sexuality makes them fundamentally different from you.

A friendship based around skirting around any meaningful discussion and sticking to “safe” topics with people exactly like you is one I would run miles to avoid.

Sorry to hear this and even sorrier that everyone's come to tell you it's fine/not homophobia 🙈

We have a two mum family in our social group, I don't think anyone has ever told
Then it was fine to be gay 😁 hopefully they'll be letting me know soon if it's 'fine' that I'm straight?

I hope they would say they've never been othered but maybe I've just never noticed 😬 certainly nothing overt.
I would say that one mum (who gave birth) is closer to the other mums but that's because we all took a 12 month maternity and did endless walks/play dates and mummyfit classes so just an exposure thing, no one thinks of the other as 'less mum'

I think you're talking about a different type of person. From my reading, here, this is just about a family who happen to have same sex parents, not someone walking into the playground announcing their pronouns & orientation & making it their entire personality & they WANT that attention, to have that fight.

However! That just speaks to their character, their orientation etc is still irrelevant, their character is what makes them difficult to be around. Like if they demanded you focus on their heteronormitivity. Or how much money they have. Or if they really liked horses, or Game Of Thrones.

But you're tarring everyone with that brush 'in case' you're accidentally homophobic, which is homophobic. It's just convenient to use outliers to justify your position (much like religious zealots use scripture as an excuse to be sexist or homophobic).

It’s not unusual in mixed groups no but why on earth would anyone assume a lesbian couple would want to recreate that?

Some of that sounds like ignorance rather than homophobia.

But homophobia too, and casual sexism as others have said.

Wearing whatever you like doesn't equate to being trans, at least it didn't used to & shouldn't now. It's just clothing. Very common for gay boys to be more open to wearing what they fancy (if the parents have opened that door) from a very young age. It's just fabric, cut in a certain way & it's us that ascribes value to it - a girl wearing trousers (high value) is empowerment, a boy wearing a skirt (low value) is a sign of mental illness.

I think it's more a general "you're different". I've had most of those comments as a single mum. People don't seem to like people being even slightly different.

I mean this thread is the classic example. 'That's not homophobia, that's sexism', 'people are just curious', 'your setup is different to the norm so of course', 'I don't understand how 2 mothers can be on a birth certificate'.

I'm sorry OP, but these are exactly the types of responses I'd expect from here.

She doesn't need to look to be offended - those comments are offensive. The fact that you don't see that speaks volumes about you...

Oh and this corker: I seriously doubt that I'd be friends with a trans/they/them couple. I can't be doing with any of that.

🤡

The fact that anyone thinks posting something so breathtakingly phobic makes me wonder about the kind of site they view this place to be

One of my best friends is gay and gets asked some ridiculous questions especially around conception.
She won't take my suggestion of saying they purchased a magical strap on. Boring arse she is.

Not relevant but I really hate her wife. She's just the absolute pits of a person so I don't like hanging out with them as a couple, but other lesbian friends I really enjoy hanging out with, I'm not sure why people seem fucking determined to make gay couples have a femme/masculine partner, it's such a dated view and homophobic now you've pointed it out. I never really thought of it as homophobic, just a bit stupid. But you're right, sexist and all.

But if I can say it one more time because it feels great to say, I really truly hate my bffs wife 🙈😂

No it doesn't. You know nothing about me. It's easy to claim to be offended when really the intention was not to be offensive. You can tell the difference if you've ever experienced any accidental racism I.e where are you from? People don't always mean to be 'offensive' and you can usually tell the ones that do and I just swerve those or call them out on it at the time.

OP isn't claiming to be offended.

The examples she cited however are offensive. Just because they weren't made intending to offend, doesn't mean they aren't offensive. If someone repeatedly used the n word, even if they didn't mean to offend, it's still offensive.

Sadly lots of the comments on this thread just don't see that. How is excluding a couple from a social occasion solely because of they are same-sex anything but homophobic. How is not regarding the non-birth parent as a proper parent anything but homophobic.

I'm a middle aged straight white woman - and even I can see it.

Love how lots of people are scrambling to explain why it’s not homophobic. It is homophobic because she wouldn’t be treated this way if she was straight. The only reason she is treated like this is because she is gay. I’m sorry OP- they sound like massive twats.

I don't think my approach is phobic - but people have different views. My approach is born out of not offending. I think the poster who mentioned the way that we now need to be so careful in today's society with what say etc is where I am coming from. In my view better to avoid an upset - what is interesting is that by avoiding I am being accused of phobia. I am not saying that over time you don't develop relationships but I would avoid topics where I might offend.

In answer to another poster who said would that apply to other people different religions etc - well again I don't want to offend people, I don't want the school gates to be a stress. Being polite, engaging in conversation is fine about areas where there is no issue, ie what books the children are reading, the football/sport at school, the prices in the supermarket etc. I think we all make friends with those who have similar views to us, but it takes time to develop a deeper friendship.

I think the allegations that this approach is bigoted and phobic is unfair and actually is the sort of approach that makes people more wary of engaging in conversation where they might offend as clearly it is very very easy to offend someone. At the end of the day no-one wants grief of stress and if being polite isn't good enough then I'm not sure what can every be good enough

when I describe myself as a mum of two or say I’ve got an older kid, and then later on say that I didn’t give birth to the first one, they challenge me on this phrasing or seem a bit pissed off as though I’ve somehow tricked them and I should have fully explained my exact circumstances right at the beginning of the conversation

I’m worried about this one specifically. My wife is due any day now. If I take our baby out alone, to a class for example, and get asked questions like are you breast feeding then it will obviously come up that I’m the non birthing parent. Will the other mothers then respond badly?

I view this site as a place to be open and honest. I don't virtue signal in real life, I'm not about to start on here.
I've got not interest whatsoever in being friends with somebody who announces their pronouns.
LGB have my full support and friendship.