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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To be a bit surprised by the gentle homophobia / othering around us?

223 replies

PlumPudd · 26/09/2023 09:55

Just after some opinions / other experiences really. I’m a mum of two, wife gave birth to our first - our girl and we did some shared mat leave (she did nine months I did three). I gave birth to the second - our boy and am currently seven months into mat leave.

I’ve had a few odd reactions from people when they’ve found out I’m married to a woman. Some seem a little homophobic (very gentle homophobia) some just seem a bit othering. Along the lines of…

  • saying I wouldn’t understand about crappy unsupportive husbands and spoil them being able to have a good moan (whose to say I might not have a crappy unsupportive wife at home, I don’t but I could!! Her being female doesn’t automatically mean she’s great)
  • saying they would have invited us to a couples outing but it might be odd for my partner because who would she talk to the mums or the dads (1 she’s a mum too, 2 why can we not all just talk together, do the dads have to go off and talk about craft beer while the mums talk about pink ribbons or something?)
  • when I describe myself as a mum of two or say I’ve got an older kid, and then later on say that I didn’t give birth to the first one, they challenge me on this phrasing or seem a bit pissed off as though I’ve somehow tricked them and I should have fully explained my exact circumstances right at the beginning of the conversation
  • a couple of mums assuring me that it’s fine that I’m gay (I know)
  • questions about whether my kids are going to have any male role models in their lives
  • occasional comments about my son being dressed in girlier clothing and whether we’re doing this on purpose (yes he is wearing mostly his big sisters clothes so there will be some yellow and purple clothes in there and slightly fewer dinosaurs but this is because it’s cheap, sensible and good for the planet not because we’re gay)

I should say most people have been great and normal and this is just the occasional person, but I’m just a bit surprised to be encountering people who seem to have some sort of (slight) problem with it or think it means I’m not quite one of the club.

So I guess my question is, straight mums - are there any aspects of hanging out with a gay mum that you’d find a bit different or unrelatable? Gay mums, did you get othered at all?

OP posts:
BarnacleBeasley · 26/09/2023 13:32

Do they ask single mums if they are going to actively look for male role models?

I bet they do actually. Though as I said a bit further up, this is one of the things DP and I do think about, because we have sons and we want them to see lots of good examples of how to be a man in the society we live in. Agree it is thick and offensive to ask though.

Hfuhruhurr · 26/09/2023 13:35

That's reminded me of a question I hope it's ok to ask on this thread! What does the child call the parents to differentiate between them ie they can't both be just "mum"? I have a nightmare trying to remember which grandmother is nana/grandma etc in our family!

GingerIsBest · 26/09/2023 13:36

Legomania · 26/09/2023 13:27

Honestly, while it wouldn't make any difference to me now, back when I had a newborn and was recovering from birth and struggling to breastfeed, the distinction would have been more important to me

Show quote history

@Comff I can categorically say that I disagree with @legomania. It would not even have occurred to me to see it as an issue.

I'd also say that you don't need to explain why you're not breastfeeding if you don't want to. So, as it is a pretty normal question, a simple, "No, I'm bottle feeding" should be fine. The kind of people who then expect you to justify this decision and explain it, are not ones you want to be hanging out with anyway! Whether you're gay or straight, birthed that baby or borrowed him from your sister for a day out! Grin

Hfuhruhurr · 26/09/2023 13:37

BarnacleBeasley · 26/09/2023 13:32

Do they ask single mums if they are going to actively look for male role models?

I bet they do actually. Though as I said a bit further up, this is one of the things DP and I do think about, because we have sons and we want them to see lots of good examples of how to be a man in the society we live in. Agree it is thick and offensive to ask though.

"Why yes, we have a weekly tea party with Andrew Tate and Graham Norton!"

LaRevolution · 26/09/2023 13:40

Deposits the very polite and restrained overall tone on this thread there's still quite a lot of attempts to minimise what the OP, a lesbian, is literally telling us is homophobia! If she doesn't know, who does?! I don't get why so many people think that she can't possibly know, but every bugger else here can?!

Anyway OP, I wish you and your wife and kids all the very best and hope this cumulative homophobia and othering (no matter how gentle it is), comes to an end soon because it must be blinking exhausting. There comes a point when impact has to matter more than intention.

GingerIsBest · 26/09/2023 13:40

Hfuhruhurr · 26/09/2023 13:35

That's reminded me of a question I hope it's ok to ask on this thread! What does the child call the parents to differentiate between them ie they can't both be just "mum"? I have a nightmare trying to remember which grandmother is nana/grandma etc in our family!

Please don't take this the wrong way - but if you can't even remember that your mum is nanna and his mum is grandma, you have a problem.

Surely as with any relationship, a name is picked (or evolves) and it's fine.

BarnacleBeasley · 26/09/2023 13:41

Hfuhruhurr · 26/09/2023 13:35

That's reminded me of a question I hope it's ok to ask on this thread! What does the child call the parents to differentiate between them ie they can't both be just "mum"? I have a nightmare trying to remember which grandmother is nana/grandma etc in our family!

We use Mummy and Mama. It's nice when people do make the effort to remember - I think one staff member from the nursery did.

BarnacleBeasley · 26/09/2023 13:42

@Hfuhruhurr yeah, they've been teaching DS how to wee standing up.

Webex · 26/09/2023 13:42

I imagine stay at home dads or dads doing SPL probably get some similar daft sorts of comments (some unthinking, some actively negative) because they like us don’t quite fit the mould.

My DH is a SAHD and also has no interest in sports and it definitely causes some issues. I am sure you're right that there is a discomfort that we don't behave "as we should". People still (in year 4) tend to text me about playdates and things even though he is the one at home.

MyAnacondaMight · 26/09/2023 13:43

Wow. So many people coming out of the woodwork to explain away low key homophobia as curiosity/difference.

Reminds me of the thread a while back about women in a same sex relationship being asked if they’re sisters all the time (as a weird power play to out them). It happens, it’s homophobic, but along came 100 people to either deny it happening or try to explain it away as curiosity.

OP, I’m sorry you’re experiencing this - both the othering and the disappointing MN response.

Smileatthesmallthings · 26/09/2023 13:44

I'm mama, my wife is mummy. Recently when he's been talking to his friends I've been 'my mum' and I know it will change as he gets older and outgrows mama, but then it'll be up to him. He also knows who people are talking about if they call me mummy because we've explained that not everyone knows the names he uses yet.

kirinm · 26/09/2023 13:45

They sound like they're living in the wrong decade. I'm not sure its homophobia but it's definitely sexist nonsense.

Merrow · 26/09/2023 13:45

We had a bit of confusion at our NCT group - mainly as a result of the midwife leading it talking a lot about "mums" and "dads" and doing a lot of the othering. She encouraged single sex WhatsApp groups to share different fears / concerns, but didn't seem to clock that I might fall into a hinterland (as a woman that wasn't pregnant but was expecting to be a mother).

Actually medical professionals generally are a bit shit. I cut them a fair amount of slack as they are so overwhelming used to seeing the norm, but when I was pregnant I had to do a lot of reminding that it was my first pregnancy despite the existence of my older child. The nurse trying to kick my wife out of NICU because she couldn't be the mother of the baby I had less patience for.

I chose to live in a very LGBT friendly area, and there's multiple children in the school that have same sex parents so generally I'm surrounded by people who don't think of our family set up as anything particularly odd. There's some interest about how we chose a donor and decisions about the genetic make up of our family, but I think there would be the same level of interest if a straight couple were open about using a donor because of infertility.

With our original NCT group there was a lot of admiration for how we split the parenting roles, but on the flip side I was shocked at how many straight couples didn't actually discuss how parenting would look like in reality! I think a lot of people fell into heteronormative patterns without thinking about it, and that really surprised me.

twelly · 26/09/2023 13:46

Comff · 26/09/2023 13:21

But you can’t see that you are offending lots of people?

Show quote history

If sticking to safe topics and being polite and not seeking to develop a friendship with someone is offending then I think everything would/could be interpreted as offensive. It's interesting that the response that being polite and avoiding conflict etc is phobic makes me even more wary of engaging as it seems nothing is right.
In answer to the question friends I have those friendships developed either through shared hobbies/ work. The OP pointed out phrases that people had made to her - I would not have said those things and would not have engaged in a conversation about anything to do with their sexuality as it is non of my business. If my approach is phobic then I think the people who view it such have a problem as they are looking for a reason to find phobic behaviour.

C152 · 26/09/2023 13:47

Hmmm...I think I'd be trying to widen my social circle, OP. You've got some bloody strange mum friends/acquaintances. I can't imagine caring who gave birth to a child, unless the parents particularly wanted to discuss it (usually because the hospital they've been at was crap and they want to compare stories). And the bit about excluding you from couples events because who would your wife talk to?! WTF? That is so beyond rude - and openly homophobic - I am speechless. As for those commenting on 'girlier' clothing...ugh...they just sound like total dickheads. I get comments about my DS because his favourite colour is pink. 🙄I think those commenting to you are trying to not so subtly make yet another homophobic jibe. You're not based in the home counties at all are you?

Webex · 26/09/2023 13:48

If sticking to safe topics and being polite and not seeking to develop a friendship with someone is offending then I think everything would/could be interpreted as offensive

You really don't understand why it might be offensive to refuse to develop a friendship with someone based on their sexuality? Do you understand that if you said you wouldn't seek to develop a friendship with black people that that would be racist?

DrinkFeckArseBrick · 26/09/2023 13:50

Going against the grain but I think some of these examples are completely homophobic!

The 'we would have invited you both but who would your wife talk to' is completely awful, and actually a direct admission that they were excluding you as a couple because you are gay. If that isn't homophobic then what is?

Just awful. And I can't believe that some people are downplaying this as you looking for things to be offended by. Yes some of the comments are more gender stereotypes but some are worse. Something doesn't have to be openly hostile and nasty to be homophobic

Hfuhruhurr · 26/09/2023 13:52

GingerIsBest · 26/09/2023 13:40

Please don't take this the wrong way - but if you can't even remember that your mum is nanna and his mum is grandma, you have a problem.

Surely as with any relationship, a name is picked (or evolves) and it's fine.

Show quote history

I don't have a problem. My mum is mum, also grandma, I also have a grandma, my dh sometimes calls me "mum" to the kids, his mum is also mum to him, his nan is nan but his mum is also nana. I often call my daughter my sister's name and my dh does similar, often going through his siblings' names first.

It's about the name not being on the tip of your tongue not about the word "nana" implying an inherently different relationship than the word "grandma".

Letitgonowgr · 26/09/2023 13:53

I think it’s just relatively new and different and people don’t know how to deal with different!

one262 · 26/09/2023 13:54

twelly · 26/09/2023 13:46

If sticking to safe topics and being polite and not seeking to develop a friendship with someone is offending then I think everything would/could be interpreted as offensive. It's interesting that the response that being polite and avoiding conflict etc is phobic makes me even more wary of engaging as it seems nothing is right.
In answer to the question friends I have those friendships developed either through shared hobbies/ work. The OP pointed out phrases that people had made to her - I would not have said those things and would not have engaged in a conversation about anything to do with their sexuality as it is non of my business. If my approach is phobic then I think the people who view it such have a problem as they are looking for a reason to find phobic behaviour.

Show quote history

Saying you wouldn't make friends with a gay person isn't polite, it's disgusting.

twelly · 26/09/2023 14:02

one262 · 26/09/2023 13:54

Saying you wouldn't make friends with a gay person isn't polite, it's disgusting.

Show quote history

I didn't say that - there is a difference between developing a strong friendship and someone you chat to at the school gate etc. I don't want to offend and clearly it's very easy to offend - that isn't phobic. We don't have to be friends with any one if we don't want - but the key is the intention, I don't want to offend, say something that might offend as language is fraught with difficulties. I don't want that stress that is not a phobic or bigoted approach

Lookforthejoy · 26/09/2023 14:03

a couple of mums assuring me that it’s fine that I’m gay (I know)

I think this one might just be filling in what could otherwise turn into an awkward pause, and also making it clear that the person does think this, to be without doubt.

This happens to me in another context and I take it as I assume it is meant (well). I mean, we often say in conversation "oh, that's great", "lovely" etc. to acknowledge what's been said without going into a more detailed discuss (which could be weird and prying), don't we?

Conkersinautumn · 26/09/2023 14:04

Relatively new? Oh dear. Lesbians did not magically spring into being after Friends you know. As for bisexuals, obviously double erasure still.

Zampanò · 26/09/2023 14:05

twelly · 26/09/2023 13:46

If sticking to safe topics and being polite and not seeking to develop a friendship with someone is offending then I think everything would/could be interpreted as offensive. It's interesting that the response that being polite and avoiding conflict etc is phobic makes me even more wary of engaging as it seems nothing is right.
In answer to the question friends I have those friendships developed either through shared hobbies/ work. The OP pointed out phrases that people had made to her - I would not have said those things and would not have engaged in a conversation about anything to do with their sexuality as it is non of my business. If my approach is phobic then I think the people who view it such have a problem as they are looking for a reason to find phobic behaviour.

Show quote history

In answer to the question friends I have those friendships developed either through shared hobbies/ work.

Is that a response to me?

But how could you have made friends with them without developing a friendship with them? Which you don't do with people who are a different sexual orientation or religion than you (or possibly race, you're a bit vague on that point.)

Hfuhruhurr · 26/09/2023 14:07

Webex · 26/09/2023 13:48

If sticking to safe topics and being polite and not seeking to develop a friendship with someone is offending then I think everything would/could be interpreted as offensive

You really don't understand why it might be offensive to refuse to develop a friendship with someone based on their sexuality? Do you understand that if you said you wouldn't seek to develop a friendship with black people that that would be racist?

Oh you know these gay people, who can possibly predict what crazy thing they'll take offence at? Shame we can never ever know, otherwise we might have to look at our own behaviour and actually determine whether it's treating them as "other" purely because of the sex of their partner. No, easier to just imagine they'll get offended at any old normal comment, that way it's their problem, not mine!!