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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Trigger warning - rape?

208 replies

Notsure12348 · 22/09/2023 22:42

Name changed as pretty sensitive post. Please don’t read if possible sexual assault will be triggering for you.

Would really appreciate thoughts on whether the following situation would be considered rape/ sexual assault or just a misunderstanding or something else.

  • Female and male both attracted to each other and engaging in foreplay.
  • Female tells male she is happy to have sex but only if a condom is used. Very clear about this being a condition for sex.
  • Male says he doesn’t have any condoms and female doesn’t either, so agree no sex.
  • Kissing etc and naked, male on top of female.
  • Female feels something slightly entering vagina, assumes male’s fingers - fine with this.
  • Female realises it might be male’s penis so asks - he confirms it is.
  • Female tells male she is not comfortable with this, he replies “oh don’t say that” and immediately stops.

Not nescessarily directly impacting upon the above but following this:

  • Female and male continue to kiss etc.
  • Next morning male finds he does have a condom and they have sex.
  • Over text when female raises the previous issue, male replies along the lines of saying that he doesn’t understand why she is concerned as he has no STIs and that as they were naked, his penis was bound to touch her, but doesn’t deny that it did penetrate her.

AIBU:

  • Reasonable: it was rape or sexual assault.
  • Unreasonable: it was a misunderstanding or some other situation that was not an assault.
OP posts:
HRTQueen · 24/09/2023 10:31

It’s should never be considered ok for men to completely ignore non consent because they are trying their luck

what are you telling your sons ? Women are growing up with far more awareness around consent they are not quite being as conditioned as many of us have been that men have to have sex they will try their luck regardless of how you feel

I am bringing up my son to always make sure he respects the person he has sex with and they are both consenting

verdantverdure · 24/09/2023 18:37

Fiiiish · 23/09/2023 22:26

I can't believe it's 2023 and we are still having to explain consent to grown adults.

Welcome to the patriarchy

Mooshamoo · 24/09/2023 18:41

I want that interested in the patriarchy , when I found out that it wasn't all about horses.

sillyuniforms · 05/10/2023 23:50

All this is highlighting is how different scenarios are interpreted. I'm my younger years around the age of 23 at a party I was having a bit of fun with a guy who then tried it on so much I actually had to fight him off in the end...he was drunk and a foot taller than me. If he'd won I'm pretty sure rape may have followed.
Around age 35 I was raped by a random man. He was sent to prison.
It's a blurred line but to me what op describes is not rape

Sayitaintso33 · 06/10/2023 08:26

Under English and Welsh law, consent is not what the woman think but what the man thinks.

If he honestly and reasonably believed that you consented then you weren't raped under English law. So in fact only the man knows if you were raped - talk about men controlling women's bodies.

So you were clear that you didn't consent to sex without a condom, but your subsequent actions in bed can lead him to reasonable believe that you changed your mind.
He might be lying about that or might genuinely think that you did change your mind.

The law of MN is quite rightly to believe and support you. The law of the land is not so gentle.
I know you realise that your 'case' wouldn't stand up in court. But others on this thread don't seem to agree with that. And that worried me.
In court, the Prosecution have to make the Jury sure that the woman is honest, accurate and reliable and that the man is lying about his belief in consent. The Prosecution have to prove their case beyond reasonable doubt or so that the jusry is sure that the man is a rapist.
Some men on the jury would be flabbergasted that you could confuse their precious penises with a finger.
In court it might play out as: he was on top. You knew exactly where his hands were and more to the point you knew exactly where his penis was. Your legs were open. His penis was right up agains your vagina. You knew that. In fact you kept pushing your vagina towards his penis. He wasn't pinning you down. You were both moving, fondling and caressing each other. You kept on moving your vagina towards him. Of course you knew it was his penis. His hands were fondling your breasts, stroking your legs. His penis was exactly where it always is and exactly where you knew it was and you kept on moving towards it, stroking his penis with your vagina.
Some might not understand why you allowed direct genital contact if you were so worried about STIs. So you explain that you so weren't so much worried about genital contact but you didn't want him to ejaculate inside you. And in court that swiftly can become so you were happy to have sex, you just didn't want him to ejaculate inside you. So that is why you spoke to him mid-sex and immediately when you asked him to withdraw, he withdrew.
Many would find your use of the word comfortable an unlikely one to describe rape. Most people think rape is far more visceral than being uncomfortable. They would expect a woman who is being raped to behave differently, even though the Judge will give them directions that woman behave in many different ways both during rape and after being rped.
If the Judge allowed the jury to hear about the consensual sex the following morning, that would also bemuse many jurors. All men and most women who haven't been raped and even some who have, would struggle to understand how a sensible rational woman could have sex with a man less than 12 hours after he raped her.

For what my opinion is worth, I think you were raped OP. But what is the answer to this question: have you suffered because of the rape? Sorry for such a brutal question and please don't answer it because I realise I am late to the thread and this is a very personal situation.
In many ways I hope you haven't suffered, but the reason why I say in many ways is because if rape doesn't cause suffering then perhaps it isn't always that serious. And that is a thought that I find very, very worrying.

Perhaps that is why so many are saying that you weren't raped. Because for them rape is the most serious of crimes with the most hideous of consequences for the victim and not something that can be discussed and dissected calmly, logically and easily.

OP, I hope you are able to find peace. If you can't, perhaps start from the position of the man not being a rapist but someone who genuinely thought you might have changed your mind. Is it possible that anything you, as a couple, did in bed could have lead a decent man to think she wants sex even though we don't have a condom? If not, you have the answer to your question. Once again I hope you find peace.

IHateLegDay · 06/10/2023 09:03

Sayitaintso33 · 06/10/2023 08:26

Under English and Welsh law, consent is not what the woman think but what the man thinks.

If he honestly and reasonably believed that you consented then you weren't raped under English law. So in fact only the man knows if you were raped - talk about men controlling women's bodies.

So you were clear that you didn't consent to sex without a condom, but your subsequent actions in bed can lead him to reasonable believe that you changed your mind.
He might be lying about that or might genuinely think that you did change your mind.

The law of MN is quite rightly to believe and support you. The law of the land is not so gentle.
I know you realise that your 'case' wouldn't stand up in court. But others on this thread don't seem to agree with that. And that worried me.
In court, the Prosecution have to make the Jury sure that the woman is honest, accurate and reliable and that the man is lying about his belief in consent. The Prosecution have to prove their case beyond reasonable doubt or so that the jusry is sure that the man is a rapist.
Some men on the jury would be flabbergasted that you could confuse their precious penises with a finger.
In court it might play out as: he was on top. You knew exactly where his hands were and more to the point you knew exactly where his penis was. Your legs were open. His penis was right up agains your vagina. You knew that. In fact you kept pushing your vagina towards his penis. He wasn't pinning you down. You were both moving, fondling and caressing each other. You kept on moving your vagina towards him. Of course you knew it was his penis. His hands were fondling your breasts, stroking your legs. His penis was exactly where it always is and exactly where you knew it was and you kept on moving towards it, stroking his penis with your vagina.
Some might not understand why you allowed direct genital contact if you were so worried about STIs. So you explain that you so weren't so much worried about genital contact but you didn't want him to ejaculate inside you. And in court that swiftly can become so you were happy to have sex, you just didn't want him to ejaculate inside you. So that is why you spoke to him mid-sex and immediately when you asked him to withdraw, he withdrew.
Many would find your use of the word comfortable an unlikely one to describe rape. Most people think rape is far more visceral than being uncomfortable. They would expect a woman who is being raped to behave differently, even though the Judge will give them directions that woman behave in many different ways both during rape and after being rped.
If the Judge allowed the jury to hear about the consensual sex the following morning, that would also bemuse many jurors. All men and most women who haven't been raped and even some who have, would struggle to understand how a sensible rational woman could have sex with a man less than 12 hours after he raped her.

For what my opinion is worth, I think you were raped OP. But what is the answer to this question: have you suffered because of the rape? Sorry for such a brutal question and please don't answer it because I realise I am late to the thread and this is a very personal situation.
In many ways I hope you haven't suffered, but the reason why I say in many ways is because if rape doesn't cause suffering then perhaps it isn't always that serious. And that is a thought that I find very, very worrying.

Perhaps that is why so many are saying that you weren't raped. Because for them rape is the most serious of crimes with the most hideous of consequences for the victim and not something that can be discussed and dissected calmly, logically and easily.

OP, I hope you are able to find peace. If you can't, perhaps start from the position of the man not being a rapist but someone who genuinely thought you might have changed your mind. Is it possible that anything you, as a couple, did in bed could have lead a decent man to think she wants sex even though we don't have a condom? If not, you have the answer to your question. Once again I hope you find peace.

You're a guy aren't you

Quartz2208 · 06/10/2023 10:30

@Sayitaintso33 not quite it has to be both a genuine and reasonable belief of consent.

here OP clearly stated her consent and boundaries there an be no genuine or reasonable belief of consent

PestilencialCrisis · 06/10/2023 11:29

@Notsure12348 if you get a chance, please watch "I May Destroy You" on BBC iPlayer. It explores so many different situations around sex and consent and fault and blame (including the one you describe in your original post).

The main character is out drinking and taking drugs and has her drink spiked and is raped by a stranger. She also has a partner who does as you describe in your original post (also deemed as rape). She has a flashback to school where a girl under 16 has consensual sex, but lies about the details, the boy is dubbed as a rapist but the lie is exposed so the he is deemed as not a rapist (even though technically he is because the girl was under 16), her friend has a threesome on holiday but later finds out the people she had it with lied to her - so did she consent to what she thought she was consenting to? So many scenarios explored in such a though provoking way. Maybe you could watch it with your partner and perhaps seeing the situation occuring and discussed on the screen might give him a deeper understanding of how it made the other person feel.

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