Page 7 | Trigger warning - rape?

Notsure12348 · 2023-09-22T21:42:25+00:00

Name changed as pretty sensitive post. Please don’t read if possible sexual assault will be triggering for you. Would really appreciate thoughts on whether the following situation would be considered rape/ sexual assault or just a misunderstanding or something else. - Female and male both attracted to each other and engaging in foreplay. - Female tells male she is happy to have sex but only if a condom is used. Very clear about this being a condition for sex. - Male says he doesn’t have any condoms and female doesn’t either, so agree no sex. - Kissing etc and naked, male on top of female. - Female feels something slightly entering vagina, assumes male’s fingers - fine with this. - Female realises it might be male’s penis so asks - he confirms it is. - Female tells male she is not comfortable with this, he replies “oh don’t say that” and immediately stops. Not nescessarily directly impacting upon the above but following this: - Female and male continue to kiss etc. - Next morning male finds he does have a condom and they have sex. - Over text when female raises the previous issue, male replies along the lines of saying that he doesn’t understand why she is concerned as he has no STIs and that as they were naked, his penis was bound to touch her, but doesn’t deny that it did penetrate her. AIBU: - Reasonable: it was rape or sexual assault. - Unreasonable: it was a misunderstanding or some other situation that was not an assault.

verdantverdure · 23/09/2023 15:26

Again, imagine "the less serious" rape was done to a child or your grandma to get all of the thought distortions about sexual politics out of your mind. (The ones that defence barristers defending rapists rely on in court.)

If that man had inserted his penis into a child would you think it was less serious"?

Did he insert his penis? YES

Did he have consent? NO

Did he know he didn't have consent because he had been told he did not have consent? YES.

Then that's rape. and that man has committed rape.

There is a line between rape and non-rape and he crossed it and committed rape.

verdantverdure · 23/09/2023 15:27

Minefield2468 · 23/09/2023 15:25

Does my gut instinct tell me this is rape? No

Does it meet strict definition of rape - probably

Are you right to feel violated - absolutely

If anything this tells me we need to educate our sons more but also be honest about blurred lines,

I am absolutely sure that there have been times when I have said no and meant no but then got the feels and changed my mind and consensually taken things further than I’d originally alluded to. It’s no wonder men might think there is wiggle room in the heat of the moment.

He was chancing it, you said no, he stopped.

I am not saying other people’s opinions are wrong and I am right at all. OP asked what people think and these are my thoughts,

There's no blurred line when a man has already been told no, as this man was.

WillowCraft · 23/09/2023 16:27

theduchessofspork · 23/09/2023 12:27

This exactly

It is technically rape.

Yes he stopped when you asked him to, but for that moment it was rape.

Had you been drunk or not noticed presumably he’d have carried on.

Plus the fact he ‘found’ a condom next morning so was clearly pre-meditated in not using one. Plus the fact he said very clearly that he doesn’t think he needs to wear a condom. This is a man who doesn’t respect women’s boundaries.

If you want to report him it fits the definition of rape.

If you don’t, you can tell him that what he did was rape.

Show quote history

Whether rape or not, what would be the point of reporting this? It will never be taken any further.

Fiiiish · 23/09/2023 16:48

This thread is disgusting. OP I'm sorry to read this has happened to you. I'm truly disgusted in the responses you've received.

Boundary of consent - sex, yes, but with a condom only

His actions - penetration without a condom

Consent given to his actions? no

Outcome; rape

How anyone can argue otherwise is completely beyond me and shows why rape is so under reported.

Startingagainandagain · 23/09/2023 17:58

@gentlemum
'OP asked for opinions on whether it was rape or not. I gave my opinion, you gave a different opinion.'

The definition of what constitutes rape/sexual assault is not an 'opinion'.

it is a fact and a matter of law.

The legal definition of rape is when a person intentionally penetrates another's vagina, anus or mouth with a penis, without the other person's consent.

The OP told him she did not consent to penetration without a condom. He then put his penis in her vagina without a condom.

It really is that simple.

It doesn't matter if she had agreed to get naked, it doesn't matter if he did not beat her up as well, It doesn't matter if only part of that penis was in, it doesn't matter if she was still at his place the following morning.

The fact remains that she clearly had not consented to what he did.

Seriously I hope that schools are doing a good job at educating girls and boys when it comes to sex and consent because the level of ignorance and victim blaming on this thread is staggering.

Startingagainandagain · 23/09/2023 18:00

@Fiiiish

''This thread is disgusting. OP I'm sorry to read this has happened to you. I'm truly disgusted in the responses you've received.

Boundary of consent - sex, yes, but with a condom only

His actions - penetration without a condom

Consent given to his actions? no

Outcome; rape

How anyone can argue otherwise is completely beyond me and shows why rape is so under reported.''

This!

It really is appalling that so many women (I assume the majority of people commenting here are women) are coming up with various ways not only to condone the guy's behaviour but also to blame the OP for what happened.

KnitWittedNan · 23/09/2023 18:29

Whether rape or not, what would be the point of reporting this? It will never be taken any further.

And why would it not? The police will take a statement and decide whether they want to question the man further. The CPS will decide whether they have enough evidence to prosecute. And then at court, a decision is made. It's all staged. Police can't go 'nah don't fancy dealing with this one'

I can't stand this idea of 'don't bother- won't go anywhere'. Maybe this is one for the rape myth thread? You might not go to court or get a prosecution but it will go somewhere

KnitWittedNan · 23/09/2023 18:31

If a 14 year old had been through this, would anyone be saying not to bother with police? It's a deeply personal choice. There are many reasons not to go through with that process, but the police this-and-that really isn't one of them.

Cas112 · 23/09/2023 18:41

I would say sexual assault over rape. Not acceptable what he did

Rubes24 · 23/09/2023 18:47

I think this is assault to be honest and I would not be seeing him again. He was very clearly told no and he did it anyway. Luckily he stopped when called out but that dosent change the above.

WillowCraft · 23/09/2023 18:59

Notsure12348 · 23/09/2023 13:18

Thanks for all the replies. I wanted to clarify a few things. Firstly, I didn’t in any way intend to upset anyone who has been a victim of any other kinds of sexual assault. I was once sexually assaulted by a stranger whilst walking home alone from uni at 4am (in summer and full daylight I would add) - that is much easier to be clear in my mind that it was not okay, not consensual etc, and those kind of assaults are obviously terrifying and I wouldn’t want it to come across that I’m trying to compare etc.

The man was a work colleague at the time, in a somewhat senior position though not someone I worked directly with. But not a stranger at all and I had believed that he would respect the boundary I set regarding protection. Given he told me he had no condoms, I had been very clear that I would not have sex that night so the comments about him trying his luck are kind of upsetting - if he wasn’t okay with that then he could equally have said well keep clothes on etc surely?

He didn’t fully penetrate me, not close - but his penis did definitely partially enter me. I have texts from afterwards where I pointed that out to him.

It isn’t just the RB stuff that has reminded me of it, I often think about it. But I think that has brought it more to the fore.

You have every right to be angry and annoyed but from his point of view, continuing with naked heavy petting having said you didn't want sex probably wasn't a clear no.

People saying you should be able to guarantee a sexual partner does exactly what you say are quite naïve and probably haven't had many sexual partners. It's an idealistic viewpoint that doesn't work in real life. Regardless of the rights and wrongs, you're setting yourself up for problems if your behaviour says yes while your words say no.

Dolores87 · 23/09/2023 19:00

KnitWittedNan · 23/09/2023 18:29

Whether rape or not, what would be the point of reporting this? It will never be taken any further.

And why would it not? The police will take a statement and decide whether they want to question the man further. The CPS will decide whether they have enough evidence to prosecute. And then at court, a decision is made. It's all staged. Police can't go 'nah don't fancy dealing with this one'

I can't stand this idea of 'don't bother- won't go anywhere'. Maybe this is one for the rape myth thread? You might not go to court or get a prosecution but it will go somewhere

I mean police did go "nah can't be bothered dealing with this one" when I reported sexual assault. They did nothing and ignored my attempts to contacting them after making me leave an horrendously graphic statement. It was traumatising. No way would I report this if it happened to me. Nothing good would come from reporting except a whole heap of extra trauma sadly.

WillowCraft · 23/09/2023 19:00

KnitWittedNan · 23/09/2023 18:31

If a 14 year old had been through this, would anyone be saying not to bother with police? It's a deeply personal choice. There are many reasons not to go through with that process, but the police this-and-that really isn't one of them.

If it was a 14 year old it would be statutory rape regardless of consent so that is different

Dolores87 · 23/09/2023 19:02

WillowCraft · 23/09/2023 18:59

You have every right to be angry and annoyed but from his point of view, continuing with naked heavy petting having said you didn't want sex probably wasn't a clear no.

People saying you should be able to guarantee a sexual partner does exactly what you say are quite naïve and probably haven't had many sexual partners. It's an idealistic viewpoint that doesn't work in real life. Regardless of the rights and wrongs, you're setting yourself up for problems if your behaviour says yes while your words say no.

Show quote history

Her behaviour wasn't saying yes while he words said no. She made it clear there was no penetrative sex welcome with out a condom but she was happy to have sex other ways. They could have mutually got each other off without penetration. Guy didn't have mixed messages. It was clear he just chose to try and do what he wanted anyway.

WillowCraft · 23/09/2023 19:03

KnitWittedNan · 23/09/2023 18:29

Whether rape or not, what would be the point of reporting this? It will never be taken any further.

And why would it not? The police will take a statement and decide whether they want to question the man further. The CPS will decide whether they have enough evidence to prosecute. And then at court, a decision is made. It's all staged. Police can't go 'nah don't fancy dealing with this one'

I can't stand this idea of 'don't bother- won't go anywhere'. Maybe this is one for the rape myth thread? You might not go to court or get a prosecution but it will go somewhere

There speaks someone who's never reported anything to the police. It's a traumatic process to go through. It will probably make you feel a whole lot worse. Really not worth it unless there's a decent chance of success.

Rockschooldropout · 23/09/2023 19:04

The legal definition of rape is when a person intentionally penetrates another's vagina, anus or mouth with a penis, without the other person's consent

I don’t know how much more spelling out this needs

Clymene · 23/09/2023 19:04

Of course it's rape.

It doesn't matter if it was all of his penis or just some of it. She said no.

FFS what is wrong with some of you?

gentlemum · 23/09/2023 19:05

Startingagainandagain · 23/09/2023 17:58

@gentlemum
'OP asked for opinions on whether it was rape or not. I gave my opinion, you gave a different opinion.'

The definition of what constitutes rape/sexual assault is not an 'opinion'.

it is a fact and a matter of law.

The legal definition of rape is when a person intentionally penetrates another's vagina, anus or mouth with a penis, without the other person's consent.

The OP told him she did not consent to penetration without a condom. He then put his penis in her vagina without a condom.

It really is that simple.

It doesn't matter if she had agreed to get naked, it doesn't matter if he did not beat her up as well, It doesn't matter if only part of that penis was in, it doesn't matter if she was still at his place the following morning.

The fact remains that she clearly had not consented to what he did.

Seriously I hope that schools are doing a good job at educating girls and boys when it comes to sex and consent because the level of ignorance and victim blaming on this thread is staggering.

Edited

OP asked whether other people would consider it rape or not - I said in my opinion I wouldn't. And regardless of what you've said I still wouldn't. Was it explicitly agreed that there would be no penetration? I don't say that to victim blame, but what I mean is they agreed no sex. To him he may consider sex to be the full blown thing with ejaculation and may not realise she meant no penetration. Whilst obviously he would be wrong and that may be down to a lack of education, which as you say is an area to be improved, but he may have meant no ill intention and that to me does show by the fact as soon as pointed out to him she didn't want that he stopped. So to me, it doesn't meet the legal or my personal definition of rape.

RufustheFactualReindeer · 23/09/2023 19:42

How does it not meet the legal definition of rape?

RufustheFactualReindeer · 23/09/2023 19:44

I’m going to ignore the whole ‘maybe he is a bit confused about what sex means’ cos I don’t have the words

Startingagainandagain · 23/09/2023 20:27

@gentlemum
''Was it explicitly agreed that there would be no penetration? I don't say that to victim blame, but what I mean is they agreed no sex. To him he may consider sex to be the full blown thing with ejaculation and may not realise she meant no penetration. Whilst obviously he would be wrong and that may be down to a lack of education, which as you say is an area to be improved, but he may have meant no ill intention and that to me does show by the fact as soon as pointed out to him she didn't want that he stopped. So to me, it doesn't meet the legal or my personal definition of rape.''

This is so, so bizarre...

Bending over backwards to try to excuse the fact that he was clearly told he would need to wear a condom if he wanted to have penetrative sex. She did not consent to sex without a condom. He ignored that. That is really all there is to it.

''To him he may consider sex to be the full blown thing with ejaculation and may not realise she meant no penetration''

Great, you just invented the new get out of jail card for the next rapist: ''yes I put my penis in her vagina Your Honour, but I did not ejaculate, so it can't legally be rape''

What the hell?

mumstheword1982 · 23/09/2023 20:40

The fact that he hasn't immediately said sorry it slipped in or similar means he knows exactly what he was doing.

If he hadn't meant to penetrate her, and it accidentally happened, he would've pulled out without having to be asked.

He only oulled out because he was questioned, otherwise I guess he'd have carried on without a condom.

KnitWittedNan · 23/09/2023 20:43

There speaks someone who's never reported anything to the police

@WillowCraft I'm sorry? Yes I have. Why else do I think I'd be supporting the idea

Have you? No. Tell us about your experience then.

KnitWittedNan · 23/09/2023 20:46

I mean police did go "nah can't be bothered dealing with this one" when I reported sexual assault.

Sorry they ignored you Delores. That wasn't my experience at all. The police 100% need to be accountable when they screw up, but as a victim you don't know where to begin and you don't have the energy

gentlemum · 23/09/2023 20:48

Startingagainandagain · 23/09/2023 20:27

@gentlemum
''Was it explicitly agreed that there would be no penetration? I don't say that to victim blame, but what I mean is they agreed no sex. To him he may consider sex to be the full blown thing with ejaculation and may not realise she meant no penetration. Whilst obviously he would be wrong and that may be down to a lack of education, which as you say is an area to be improved, but he may have meant no ill intention and that to me does show by the fact as soon as pointed out to him she didn't want that he stopped. So to me, it doesn't meet the legal or my personal definition of rape.''

This is so, so bizarre...

Bending over backwards to try to excuse the fact that he was clearly told he would need to wear a condom if he wanted to have penetrative sex. She did not consent to sex without a condom. He ignored that. That is really all there is to it.

''To him he may consider sex to be the full blown thing with ejaculation and may not realise she meant no penetration''

Great, you just invented the new get out of jail card for the next rapist: ''yes I put my penis in her vagina Your Honour, but I did not ejaculate, so it can't legally be rape''

What the hell?

Completely and strangely twisting what I've said....
Not in any way bending over backwards to excuse his behaviour, I've said it's wrong. Just that to me I wouldn't class it as rape. What's bizarre is your inability to accept a view that is different to yours and intentionally misconstruing what someone else has said.