Trigger warning - rape?

[Notsure12348]

Name changed as pretty sensitive post. Please don’t read if possible sexual assault will be triggering for you.

Would really appreciate thoughts on whether the following situation would be considered rape/ sexual assault or just a misunderstanding or something else.

• Female and male both attracted to each other and engaging in foreplay.
• Female tells male she is happy to have sex but only if a condom is used. Very clear about this being a condition for sex.
• Male says he doesn’t have any condoms and female doesn’t either, so agree no sex.
• Kissing etc and naked, male on top of female.
• Female feels something slightly entering vagina, assumes male’s fingers - fine with this.
• Female realises it might be male’s penis so asks - he confirms it is.
• Female tells male she is not comfortable with this, he replies “oh don’t say that” and immediately stops.

Not nescessarily directly impacting upon the above but following this:

• Female and male continue to kiss etc.
• Next morning male finds he does have a condom and they have sex.
• Over text when female raises the previous issue, male replies along the lines of saying that he doesn’t understand why she is concerned as he has no STIs and that as they were naked, his penis was bound to touch her, but doesn’t deny that it did penetrate her.

AIBU:

• Reasonable: it was rape or sexual assault.
• Unreasonable: it was a misunderstanding or some other situation that was not an assault.

@LDNH - no that’s definitely not what I said
What I’m saying is if I thought I had been raped the night before then I wouldn’t feel comfortable staying with this man overnight let alone have sex with him in the morning. OP said she hadnt really processed it at that point which is completely fair enough everyone reacts differently so please don’t put words in my mouth or tell me what I’m ‘implying’

You stated your reasons, he tried to push that boundary. Yes, he stopped when told to do so but he'd already crossed a line.
Yes you had consensual sex the next day within your boundaries but that doesn't excuse his literal push earlier.
When I read this I was ready to say that it doesn't count as rape. I was raped after taking a sleeping tablet, in a way (not the regular way) that I would never have consented to. But replying to you, there are obviously no grades of sexual encounter that are okay when someone has stipulated what consent means for them.
Please get this person out of your life ASAP. He will do you nothing but harm in the long run. Please don’t ever let that disgusting man put you in the same position again.
Hope you're doing okay OP

Thank you. I’m starting to think he might have gaslighted me a bit in his response and the fact I did (stupidly) really like him also clouded my judgement. I really was very clear that I wanted to have sex with him but ONLY if a condom was used, and I explained my reasons for that to him.

@KitDeLuca I understand your perspective, and I think this is the part of the definition that is most tricky to prove in most rape cases as what someone 'believes' is very subjective.

That said, making sex conditional upon use of a condom is exactly that. It isn't the same as consenting to unprotected sex so long as they don't come in you. The difference between unprotected sex and protected sex is very stark and hard to confuse.

@Bluelightbaby "he stopped immediately when asked" - kind of him to stop raping her when asked. I think we all know that the proper and legal order of things is to get consent before penetrating someone.

@TrishM80 "she was happy to have sex with him the next morning" - what does this have to do with the penetration the night before? Many women stay in relationships with men that rape them and/or beat them (or abuse them in other ways) does this mean they weren't ever raped/beaten/abused? Actions of a victim after the event cannot change the event itself!

"Female tells male she is happy to have sex but only if a condom is used. Very clear about this being a condition for sex."

I'm taking OP on trust, there's absolutely no way he could have believed she consented.

Of course he may argue otherwise, because he knows women are very rarely believed.

We owe it to OP to give honest responses, not downplay it because no good can come of it.

Angrywife · Today 01:56

If I didn't want to risk it, I wouldn't be getting naked under him 🤷

Victim blaming comments don’t change the facts. Op discussed with him that she did not want sex without condom and at this point he acted like he respected that, then went against her Will starting to rape her.

Perhaps it was unfair to say you were implying that, but what happened the next morning is completely irrelevant to what happened the night before.

What makes your comment so dangerous is that it's exactly the tactics that would be used to defend an accused rapist.....

"If he raped you the night before, why would you consent to have sex with him the next day? It seems like you're a bit confused, maybe you gave mixed signals? They must have been mixed signals because the defendent genuinely believed you consented. Maybe you consented at the time but now regret having sex with him so have accused him."

Depressingly, the comments on this thread show that this kind of defense would absolutely work.

The only context that is relevant is that the man was told that he does not have consent to insert his penis.

if he then does insert his penis.

That is rape.

If the same man inserted the tip of his penis into a child would that be child sexual abuse or just chancing it?

But it had been made clear before that that he wasn't supposed to put his penis inside her.

He penetrated her anyway.

im so sorry this happened to you, this is rape

It's a really grey area. He penetrated you with out consent (rape) but stopped when you told him to. It was definitely wrong and reads like he was hoping you would change your mind once it was 'in' . You have a right to be angry and feel violated and I would definitely not have a relationship/friendship with that person.

I'm glad you posted @Notsure12348 . I think reflecting on this is going to be helpful for you.

This is going to be a long post. Obviously everyone will feel free to skim or ignore.

There are two men whom I had incidents with when I look back. I've often thought...was that rape? The difficulty is society twists things to excuse men. And I think we do too, when it's happened to us.

The first was when I was 18. He was a new boyfriend. We'd been on a night out with me, him, my brother and his gf. We all went back to bf house. I was v drunk. I went to the loo and when I got back my brother had gone home and left me there. I had no way of getting home and was persuaded to stay. We were to sleep in same bed. I remember saying we couldn't have sex because it was my period and I think I felt sort of 'protected' by that. I was so young and naive, I didn't realise you could or would want to do it when 'on'. . But it ended up happening anyway. I remember having to find my tampon inside after. Afterwards, even though I hadn't wanted to start having sex with him so soon, we continued to have a sexual relationship. I remember thinking 'oh well, we've done it now we might as well carry on '. I think I was normalising what happened. I'm 50 now and still think about it and think about why my brother left me there and put me at risk. I feel some shame and confusion and remember vivid details about that one night, so there's some trauma.

The second man was my exh. He ended up being sexually, financially and mentally/emotionally abusive. I never thought that he raped me until I was posting on another thread maybe ten years ago. People started sending me . Saying they were sorry he raped me. I didn't know he'd raped me. He'd had sex with me from behind, how he liked it and had been removing condom without my consent and then progressed to coming inside me without my consent. He'd decided to get me pregnant. It was progressive wearing down of my boundaries. He was coercive and I felt like I must have agreed but I didn't. I accepted it after the fact, just like that first boyfriend. It wasn't what we agreed. He'd just got his own way and messed with my head afterwards.

But without this, I wouldn't have my son.

I know we are probably not supposed to.categorise rape in some sort of worst kind to least worst kind...but I guess there is something in that. Rape from a stranger who attacks someone is going to cause more trauma than this ' we were in bed and boundaries were ignored '.….but I think there's still trauma or we wouldn't be thinking about it like this years later.

Society, certainly when I grew up, gave us this idea of men being unable to stop, women unfairly leading men on and women being responsible for their transgressions..that's why I reframed it in my head..but I obviously knew it was wrong. I've done a lot of work on my boundaries since my marriage.

I feel he was pushing his luck, hoping you'd be so in to it that you'd change your mind. As he did stop when you asked I wouldn't say it was rape.

Yes this was rape or atleast attempted rape.
I mean if rape as a spectrum of severity this is on the lower end but it is non consensual penetration, you have every right to be upset about it, and tbh definitely don't have sex with this person again. They will push and ignore your boundaries.

Well it’s abject irresponsibility on both sides. You really need to be on hormonal contraceptives because if you get carried away and penetration occurs then you risk pregnancy.
And no, I don’t think it’s rape. Sounds more like seduction but I can understand why your not happy after the heat of the moment.
Why be naked with the man and heavy pet? Really silly behaviour.
Do you have issues around men?

Nonsense.

There was no misunderstanding here. She told him very clearly she did not consent to and would not have sex with him without a condom. He tried to do it anyway.

Many women go on to have consensual sex with someone that has assaulted them even violently, so the fact she had sex with him the next day has no barring over whether this was an assault.

Technically rape, yes, and you’re right to be upset as he did something to you without your consent

but, here I’m going to stick my neck out, you were saying if he’d penetrated you with his fingers that’d be ok? You were engaging in a lot of intimidate sexual behaviour, and then say you weren’t sure at first?

so, you were ok with penetration - but not penis without condom ….and I assume this is down to medicinal issues and concerns re conception?

does he know this explicitly? Did you explain that up front? Did you ask him if he was ok to engage in sexual act but not penetration without condom? Did he understand that?

if the answers are clearly, he knew, he understood, yet he went ahead, then shit, yes I’d dump the bastard and tell him I’m considering reporting it to police.

if he didn’t know reason and wasn’t clear, I’d be a bit more on lines of giving him background as to why it is not acceptable to do something on basis that “he knows best” and ensure he never does it again. And make my decision if to finish the relatioship

Oh,and I’d , at the very least, send the prick the “cup of tea” video….might help him understand boundaries.

@LDNH if you report to the police, they ask questions during the interview. Your therapist will ask questions to understand the situation. PP hasn't done anything wrong in asking that question.

I though it was more about op reflecting on what happened than her saying she has no right to be upset.

To answer the question, no I don't think it's rape. He didn't penetrate and stopped. Still deeply upsetting that he tried to do that and put your health at risk. You could approach the police about this and ask for advice.

You might want to try reading op's comments properly before spouting your judgmental crap.

I’d also not class this as rape or sexual assault. I’d class it as going too far and chancing his luck. He stopped but should never have tried as you were clear. The grabbing the bags I’d see as more of an issue.

Of course it is rape. He penetrated you without your consent, after you explicitly said no, for long enough that you could contract an sti from him. It's rape.

This is called Stealthing.

You made it clear you did not want to have sex without condom and he ignored you.

He also maintained that what he did was OK the following day.

Do not see this man again.

The definition of rape is penetration without consent. This is what happened here.

I find it mind-blowing that some people on this thread are saying that his penis entered you vagina ''by accident'' or that it can't be rape/sexual assault because it was not ''full penetration''.

Why on earth do we continue to excuse/minimise men behaviour in this way?

Of course you are angry because deep down you know what he did was wrong.

That was unacceptable behaviour from the man, but I definitely wouldn't consider it rape and I think calling it so is unfair to people who have actually been raped. You were in a consensual situation where possibly he got carried away (not acceptable) but he stopped when asked and you continued on with the situation and then had sex the next morning, so it can't have made you feel that uncomfortable. I know other people disagree but personally I can't get my head around calling that rape, it isn't.

@gentlemum

''That was unacceptable behaviour from the man, but I definitely wouldn't consider it rape and I think calling it so is unfair to people who have actually been raped.''

Don't even go there...I have been raped and you don't speak on my behalf or decide what is rape or what isn't...

The definition of rape is clear: when a person intentionally penetrates another's vagina, anus or mouth with a penis, without the other person's consent.

The OP did not consent to sex without a condom and made that very clear to him. So he did not have her consent to do what he did. That is all there is to it.

It doesn't matter if she had agreed before to sleep with him or if she slept with him the following day.

Victims often froze or are unwilling/unable to process that something wrong is happening to them in the moment but afterwards once you have removed yourself from the situation and are safe your body and mind start telling you that something really wrong actually happened...