Trigger warning - rape?

[Notsure12348]

Name changed as pretty sensitive post. Please don’t read if possible sexual assault will be triggering for you.

Would really appreciate thoughts on whether the following situation would be considered rape/ sexual assault or just a misunderstanding or something else.

• Female and male both attracted to each other and engaging in foreplay.
• Female tells male she is happy to have sex but only if a condom is used. Very clear about this being a condition for sex.
• Male says he doesn’t have any condoms and female doesn’t either, so agree no sex.
• Kissing etc and naked, male on top of female.
• Female feels something slightly entering vagina, assumes male’s fingers - fine with this.
• Female realises it might be male’s penis so asks - he confirms it is.
• Female tells male she is not comfortable with this, he replies “oh don’t say that” and immediately stops.

Not nescessarily directly impacting upon the above but following this:

• Female and male continue to kiss etc.
• Next morning male finds he does have a condom and they have sex.
• Over text when female raises the previous issue, male replies along the lines of saying that he doesn’t understand why she is concerned as he has no STIs and that as they were naked, his penis was bound to touch her, but doesn’t deny that it did penetrate her.

AIBU:

• Reasonable: it was rape or sexual assault.
• Unreasonable: it was a misunderstanding or some other situation that was not an assault.

Because no-one has ever been raped or assaulted by someone they know.

OP had been very clear of her boundaries with the male in advance. Perhaps he should have stopped at that point, if he couldn't trust himself not to ignore that one "little thing" where she'd been clear she didn't consent to penetrative sex.

There's no degree of penetration, even a little bit in is penetration.

No means no.

Sexual assault/stealthing.

She said in advance she didn't want penetrative sex with our a condom. He didn't need to stop and check he knew in advance there was no condom and so penetrative sex was off the cards.

You don't consent to all sexual activity by getting naked. He didn't need to penetrate her with his penis because he knew IN ADVANCE she didn't consent to that.

It is completely fair to have non penetrative sex with someone with a boundary that penetrative sex is off the table and unwanted.

I was going to give you the benefit of the doubt here, and suggest you were maybe confusing this with a situation where the OP had initially given consent but then withdrew that consent at the point where she asked him to stop. That's not what happened here. Consent to penetration had been expressly denied in advance. Entirely different.

However, I've now seen your later post saying "don't get naked with someone if you don't want to have sex" as your reasoning. Again, enough of the victim blaming.

Just as you say the PP doesn't speak on behalf of everyone who has been raped, you don't get to decide how the OP felt at the time, or feels about it now.

This exactly

It is technically rape.

Yes he stopped when you asked him to, but for that moment it was rape.

Had you been drunk or not noticed presumably he’d have carried on.

Plus the fact he ‘found’ a condom next morning so was clearly pre-meditated in not using one. Plus the fact he said very clearly that he doesn’t think he needs to wear a condom. This is a man who doesn’t respect women’s boundaries.

If you want to report him it fits the definition of rape.

If you don’t, you can tell him that what he did was rape.

Exactly

you had already clearly communicated to him that you were not gong to have sex without a condom but he tried anyway 🙄

he didn’t get caught up in the moment he felt it was fine to ignore what you had told him

what if you had frozen in shock/fear and he had carried on becuase he wasn’t reminded of what he already knew

we have to get away from this idea that men try their luck or that they get carried away he wasn’t fully aware of what he was doing and he at that moment had absolutely no respect for you giving consent or not

I have been in this situation more than once was it like the time I was raped until rapist climaxed no but it was certainly ignoring my non consent

@Shannonz

I know you didn’t mean this in an unsupportive way, but the fact the OP chose not to leave has nothing to do with whether or not it was rape.

It was rape.

And yes it would also have been smarter for the OP to have left. There are lots of reasons people don’t do that, not least being confused about what someone they trusted was suddenly up to. But either way, it’s a separate issue.

OP - you know 1 in 100 police in England and Wales is under investigation for criminal behaviour. It’s a real issue at the moment.

Even if you don't feel violated in same way, it is rape because you specified consent would only be given with a condom and you did not want sex only foreplay, it was clear enough that he verbally agreed. He didn't accidently slip in, he was forcing your boundaries in hope you'd just go along with sex anyway and only stopped as you pulled him up on it and likely in his mind realised at that stage if carried on its rape and then he'd definitely not get chance to sleep with you again. No different than if you had consented to PIV sex but said no to anal and he went oops I'm in now, that's going against your wishes.
Decent people manage to maintain boundaries to only engage in foreplay you didn't need to have put clothing on to avoid sex with him.

It was rape and your feelings are valid. I hope you're okay x

I am not blaming her, I am just thinking about taking reasonable steps to ensure the end result is what you want.

People do need to take some responsibility for their own part in these things. In the real world it's unrealistic to expect perfect behaviour from everyone at all times, even those we love dearly.
Yes the man made a mistake. No he is not a rapist. The op was not at any risk.

Absolutely. I get where pp was coming from because being naked and alone with a man makes you very vulnerable but you really can't be clearer than "I don't want to have sex without a condom". Disgusting to violate someone in that way

She laid out her consent very clearly before they started. What’s hard about that to understand? Plus penetration is hardly “every little thing”.

honestly what do you gain from being a rape apologist?

The op was not at any risk.

Sexual health
Pregnancy if he continued
Being raped obviously

?

The OP was clear no penetrative sex without condom.

She wasn't sure if it was penis or fingers entering her, so asked.
It was penis. If she hadn't asked, if she had assumed, "it must be fingers, because he knows I don't want his penis without a condom," he'd have carried on. He knew what he was doing and what she'd said, and was taking the chance she wouldn't mention it because it was already happening.

So it is rape. Wouldn't get anywhere in court, though.

The ripped bag is a red flag, too.

OP, every man I've been with in 18 months of OLD has preferred not to use condoms, don't all carry them and will bang on about how much better sex I without it, how they know they're clean (because of one STI test nearly a year ago...) and the chances of me getting pregnant at 50 are really low. They are very tiresome. I keep my own stash of condoms so they have no excuse.

Thanks for all the replies. I wanted to clarify a few things. Firstly, I didn’t in any way intend to upset anyone who has been a victim of any other kinds of sexual assault. I was once sexually assaulted by a stranger whilst walking home alone from uni at 4am (in summer and full daylight I would add) - that is much easier to be clear in my mind that it was not okay, not consensual etc, and those kind of assaults are obviously terrifying and I wouldn’t want it to come across that I’m trying to compare etc.

The man was a work colleague at the time, in a somewhat senior position though not someone I worked directly with. But not a stranger at all and I had believed that he would respect the boundary I set regarding protection. Given he told me he had no condoms, I had been very clear that I would not have sex that night so the comments about him trying his luck are kind of upsetting - if he wasn’t okay with that then he could equally have said well keep clothes on etc surely?

He didn’t fully penetrate me, not close - but his penis did definitely partially enter me. I have texts from afterwards where I pointed that out to him.

It isn’t just the RB stuff that has reminded me of it, I often think about it. But I think that has brought it more to the fore.

I’m also not asking about this because of having any intention to go to the Police or anything, definitely not. I know it wouldn’t “hold up on court” and I really, really hope that the man learned from it like I did.

I think it's worth reporting if you have texts. It may well get to court and at the very least, it will be on his record under his name. There nothing to lose, imo

I still don't understand why you you would have consensual sex with this man the next morning if even a tiny part of you thought you had been raped by him.

It's not a black and white thing - people are not perfect victims and do not react in ways you may expect. There's often a strong impulse to try to normalise what has happened.

https://thenib.com/trigger-warning-breakfast-c6cdeec070e6/#.j4i6ltxzv

In my opinion no this is not rape

Your anger is valid whatever anyone calls it.

Fwiw I think it was rape but, and some will flame me for this, it was at the very low end of seriousness. Often in debates about rape people go nuts at the suggestion that some rapes are more serious than others but I think that’s bollocks.

But I don’t think your feelings should be determined by how criminal it was. Behaviour can be outrageous/upsetting or whatever without being criminal at all so you’re entitled to feel how you feel.

Or maybe she just wanted to have sex with him. It's a possibility.

It is. Women do stay in relationships where they have been sexually assaulted or raped, sometimes for years, and not all the sex they have in that relationship will be non-consensual. It doesn't mean the non-consensual incidents are somehow nullified.

Does my gut instinct tell me this is rape? No

Does it meet strict definition of rape - probably

Are you right to feel violated - absolutely

If anything this tells me we need to educate our sons more but also be honest about blurred lines,

I am absolutely sure that there have been times when I have said no and meant no but then got the feels and changed my mind and consensually taken things further than I’d originally alluded to. It’s no wonder men might think there is wiggle room in the heat of the moment.

He was chancing it, you said no, he stopped.

I am not saying other people’s opinions are wrong and I am right at all. OP asked what people think and these are my thoughts,