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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Trigger warning - rape?

208 replies

Notsure12348 · 22/09/2023 22:42

Name changed as pretty sensitive post. Please don’t read if possible sexual assault will be triggering for you.

Would really appreciate thoughts on whether the following situation would be considered rape/ sexual assault or just a misunderstanding or something else.

  • Female and male both attracted to each other and engaging in foreplay.
  • Female tells male she is happy to have sex but only if a condom is used. Very clear about this being a condition for sex.
  • Male says he doesn’t have any condoms and female doesn’t either, so agree no sex.
  • Kissing etc and naked, male on top of female.
  • Female feels something slightly entering vagina, assumes male’s fingers - fine with this.
  • Female realises it might be male’s penis so asks - he confirms it is.
  • Female tells male she is not comfortable with this, he replies “oh don’t say that” and immediately stops.

Not nescessarily directly impacting upon the above but following this:

  • Female and male continue to kiss etc.
  • Next morning male finds he does have a condom and they have sex.
  • Over text when female raises the previous issue, male replies along the lines of saying that he doesn’t understand why she is concerned as he has no STIs and that as they were naked, his penis was bound to touch her, but doesn’t deny that it did penetrate her.

AIBU:

  • Reasonable: it was rape or sexual assault.
  • Unreasonable: it was a misunderstanding or some other situation that was not an assault.
OP posts:
Letitgonowgr · 23/09/2023 20:53

If you didn’t want his penis to go near your vagina without a condom, when you realised you didn’t have a condom you should have put your underwear back on. It was bound to get near your vagina if both naked! You then had sex the next day so if you were that upset about it why did you do that?!

applesandmares · 23/09/2023 21:01

@Letitgonowgr oh for heavens sake I've seen one too many of these comments saying that OP should have put her pants on so that she wouldn't be raped.

She was in a steamy situation with a work colleague who she trusted and expected to respect the boundary they had agreed to. She was happy to carry on with foreplay despite the fact that they weren't going to have intercourse.

The focus shouldn't be on what she should have done to avoid being raped. This is on him and only him. He sought consent and when he didn't get it, he went ahead anyway.

Yes, there are things women can do to try and stay safe (let friends know who they're meeting, not leave drinks unattended etc) but when a woman has been assaulted, the finger should be pointed squarely at the person who assaulted her.

CherryMaDeara · 23/09/2023 21:03

BeatenByAScone · 23/09/2023 10:57

I'm angry and appalled at some of the responses here. Since so many people have mentioned "stealthing", I can only hope that it's due to a lack of comprehension.

This was clearly not stealthing. OP had said she would only have penetrative sex with a condom. At that point there was no condom so there was never any expectation that the male would use a condom. Therefore there was no consent to penetrative sex. The boundaries were very clear.

Then there are those who say "he was only pushing his luck" or suggested OP might have changed her mind once they reached that point. Again, OP had clearly laid out the boundaries beforehand and male had agreed to those conditions. Even if we were to be incredibly generous with the benefit of doubt, it's really not difficult to take a couple of seconds to check with your partner before attempting to do something you'd agreed not to do.

Then there are those who are suggesting it wasn't rape because "he stopped when you asked him to". That doesn't delete the fact he'd already chosen to put his penis in her vagina, despite knowing she didn't consent. Perhaps it's easier to understand if we take the sexual aspect out of it. Let's say someone was tickling you and you didn't want them to so asked them to stop. They immediately stop. Does that mean they hadn't tickled you before you asked them to stop?

And then there are those who agree that there was intentional penetration without consent but think this wasn't rape because it wasn't rapey enough, or because OP went on to have consensual sex with the same person on a separate occasion. It's sad to see people still hold these beliefs.

OP, whatever feelings you have about this encounter are entirely valid. It was rape. You did nothing "wrong" and are not accountable for his actions. I'm sorry so many other posters suggest differently.

Exactly. I can’t decide if people are being thick or rape apologists.

But given all the minimising of Russell Brand raping women, I really shouldn’t be surprised.

Switcher · 23/09/2023 21:05

Well if that's rape, I'm guessing you weren't young in the 90s.

applesandmares · 23/09/2023 21:08

@gentlemum I think you're the one intentionally misconstruing things. Every man and his dog knows that "no condom no sex" means don't put your fucking cock in me without a condom. It doesn't mean put your cock in me but don't ejaculate. Women get pregnant and contract STIs despite men pulling out to cum. What would be the point in the condom unless she was trying to protect herself?

You're trying to find a way to excuse and minimise his behaviour. Oh well what if the poor dear didn't understand a very clear boundary that was communicated to him? It's tiresome.

What would you class as rape?

category12 · 23/09/2023 21:09

Switcher · 23/09/2023 21:05

Well if that's rape, I'm guessing you weren't young in the 90s.

Well marital rape wasn't illegal in the UK until 1992, so it's hardly an advertisement. 🙄

Switcher · 23/09/2023 21:11

@category12 indeed.

applesandmares · 23/09/2023 21:13

Switcher · 23/09/2023 21:05

Well if that's rape, I'm guessing you weren't young in the 90s.

If you don't think that's rape, I guess you aren't keeping up with the law and developing case law around consent. Please don't educate your sons or daughters based on what was legal and acceptable in the 90s when husbands could rape their wives 😂 things have moved on a hell of way since then.

RufustheFactualReindeer · 23/09/2023 21:15

What apples just said

i got married in 1990, its a very long way from 2023 and thankfully things have moved on since then

StarDolphins · 23/09/2023 21:16

if this happened to me, I wouldn’t think it was rape. Trying his luck yes.

applesandmares · 23/09/2023 21:28

StarDolphins · 23/09/2023 21:16

if this happened to me, I wouldn’t think it was rape. Trying his luck yes.

I think this is a really important point actually. Despite what the law says, a lot of how we define our experiences is how we feel about them.

As I said at the beginning of this thread, if this happened with my fiancé, whilst it would technically be rape, I wouldn't feel that I had been raped by him. If this happened with a one night stand, I would feel differently. That doesn't mean that the technical legal position would be any different.

If I am attempting to initiate sex with my partner, I might put my hand on his penis without asking for his expressed consent. This is technically assault, but in the context of our loving relationship, we don't comprehend it that way. If I did that to a random man on the train, it would be very different 😂

Oldthyme · 23/09/2023 21:31

yogasaurus · 23/09/2023 00:48

Not acceptable, but not rape

I agree with this, ^.

BeatenByAScone · 23/09/2023 21:40

Switcher · 23/09/2023 21:05

Well if that's rape, I'm guessing you weren't young in the 90s.

The 90s? The 90s ended almost 24 years ago!

I was "young" in the 90s. I was also having sex.

Would I have considered this rape in the 90s? Probably not, because I didn't have access to the information I do now, and the attitudes of the day were very different. Although, then again, with some of the posts I've read it seems you're not the only poster with attitudes stuck in the 90s.

Do I consider it rape now? Absolutely! The OP could not have been clearer that penetrative sex was off the table and yet he went ahead anyway without obtaining consent.

Dolores87 · 23/09/2023 21:47

gentlemum · 23/09/2023 19:05

OP asked whether other people would consider it rape or not - I said in my opinion I wouldn't. And regardless of what you've said I still wouldn't. Was it explicitly agreed that there would be no penetration? I don't say that to victim blame, but what I mean is they agreed no sex. To him he may consider sex to be the full blown thing with ejaculation and may not realise she meant no penetration. Whilst obviously he would be wrong and that may be down to a lack of education, which as you say is an area to be improved, but he may have meant no ill intention and that to me does show by the fact as soon as pointed out to him she didn't want that he stopped. So to me, it doesn't meet the legal or my personal definition of rape.

Show quote history

Noone thinks sex means penetration until ejaculation only.

You are really jumping through hoops to defend this guy. I have no idea why

StarDolphins · 23/09/2023 21:48

applesandmares · 23/09/2023 21:28

I think this is a really important point actually. Despite what the law says, a lot of how we define our experiences is how we feel about them.

As I said at the beginning of this thread, if this happened with my fiancé, whilst it would technically be rape, I wouldn't feel that I had been raped by him. If this happened with a one night stand, I would feel differently. That doesn't mean that the technical legal position would be any different.

If I am attempting to initiate sex with my partner, I might put my hand on his penis without asking for his expressed consent. This is technically assault, but in the context of our loving relationship, we don't comprehend it that way. If I did that to a random man on the train, it would be very different 😂

Show quote history

Yes exactly this! I feel like this, the amount of times over the years that boyfriends have (how I saw it) tried their luck in the moment & despite them being ex’s (for different reasons) I never saw it as anything more than this. They all loved & respected me - despite evidently being randy dogs!

My mum was raped in a park by a stranger at 12 years old & it’s ruined her life and had a massive negative toll on her children’s lives too.

Dolores87 · 23/09/2023 21:49

Letitgonowgr · 23/09/2023 20:53

If you didn’t want his penis to go near your vagina without a condom, when you realised you didn’t have a condom you should have put your underwear back on. It was bound to get near your vagina if both naked! You then had sex the next day so if you were that upset about it why did you do that?!

It wasn't just near her vagina. He consciously decided to try and penetrate her vagina with it knowing full well she didn't consent to that happening.

INeedAnotherName · 23/09/2023 21:55

Good grief, the amount of people saying it wasn't rape because he stopped 😱

Just how many inches need to go in before it's classed as rape?
How many thrusts are required before it's classed as rape?

She had said no penetrative sex without a condom, not no sex at all. It sounds like she would have been fine with manual stimulation/climax which is why she continued up to that point.

According to the law he raped her as she had refused consent for PiV right before it happened. No ifs, no buts, no maybes.

I am so sorry OP Flowers

Nonplusultra · 23/09/2023 22:08

Can we just be clear on the fact that the op being naked with a man and engaging in foreplay are not crimes.
She did nothing wrong.
And even if she was committing a crime, she still would not deserve to be raped.

Putting a penis inside someone’s vagina against their clearly expressed wishes is a crime.

Nemesias · 23/09/2023 22:14

applesandmares · 23/09/2023 21:28

I think this is a really important point actually. Despite what the law says, a lot of how we define our experiences is how we feel about them.

As I said at the beginning of this thread, if this happened with my fiancé, whilst it would technically be rape, I wouldn't feel that I had been raped by him. If this happened with a one night stand, I would feel differently. That doesn't mean that the technical legal position would be any different.

If I am attempting to initiate sex with my partner, I might put my hand on his penis without asking for his expressed consent. This is technically assault, but in the context of our loving relationship, we don't comprehend it that way. If I did that to a random man on the train, it would be very different 😂

Show quote history

If I am attempting to initiate sex with my partner, I might put my hand on his penis without asking for his expressed consent. This is technically assault,

don’t be obtuse for the sake of it, it’s not clever. Touching your partners penis as part of a relationship where you can safely assume you have consent and are initiating sex is not assault. Touching your partners penis after he’s told you not to is assault.

i can’t believe you don’t understand that distinction

Fiiiish · 23/09/2023 22:26

I can't believe it's 2023 and we are still having to explain consent to grown adults.

applesandmares · 23/09/2023 22:50

@Nemesias Give your head a wobble. If you read my posts on this thread you will see that I clearly state (over and over) that what happened to the OP was rape, and I am very well versed on the law and case law being a lawyer myself.

The post you replied to was in reference to the differing views on this thread, where many posters don't believe this is rape (despite the clear legal position) as they wouldn't feel that way if it happened to them.

I can appreciate that how an individual feels about a situation might lead them to come to a conclusion that is at odds with the legal position. That doesn't mean I agree with them.

Panaa · 24/09/2023 04:05

If I am attempting to initiate sex with my partner, I might put my hand on his penis without asking for his expressed consent. This is technically assault, but in the context of our loving relationship, we don't comprehend it that way.

@applesandmares

No it isn't technically assault. This is fine in many relationships due to the sexual dynamic between the couple. My exes always told me "you can touch me any time, even if I'm asleep". With my last ex he knew he could touch me any time except when I was asleep. If he had touched me when I was asleep I would have considered it to be assault because he knew that that was the one time he did not have permission.

Ifallelsefailschocolate · 24/09/2023 09:08

Panaa · 24/09/2023 04:05

If I am attempting to initiate sex with my partner, I might put my hand on his penis without asking for his expressed consent. This is technically assault, but in the context of our loving relationship, we don't comprehend it that way.

@applesandmares

No it isn't technically assault. This is fine in many relationships due to the sexual dynamic between the couple. My exes always told me "you can touch me any time, even if I'm asleep". With my last ex he knew he could touch me any time except when I was asleep. If he had touched me when I was asleep I would have considered it to be assault because he knew that that was the one time he did not have permission.

Going by what you have described , you are basing your response on your own relationships, but they are not the same as the Op ‘s situation.

Comedycook · 24/09/2023 09:16

A naked man on top of a naked woman... kissing. My first thought was that this could have happened almost inadvertently in that situation...

Comedycook · 24/09/2023 09:32

If he did do it on purpose then yes, it may technically be classed as rape. I'd imagine he was hoping the op would think in that moment, sod it, lets keep going without a condom and he could pass it all off as them getting carried away in the heat of the moment. Agree he'd be pushing his luck...and yes it probably is technically rape.